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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: jaybeerman on July 22, 2011, 12:13:27 pm

Title: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on July 22, 2011, 12:13:27 pm
For me this normally means means IPA, brown porter, wit, some bitters, saison, mild ale or...but this year I actually feel like making a very small citrus/spice dryish ale.  I'm shooting for a well rounded character, let me know what you think of the following basic recipe.

5.5 gal, 1.047ish, 18ibu

Mash @ 151 for 50 min, 2 qt/lb
5.25 lb Pils
4 lb Mild or Special Aromatic or mix
12 oz CaraWheat 56L

1 oz Kent Golding @ FWH
2-3 oz Kent Golding @ 2 minutes

Spices @ 5 minutes
0.75 gm Cumin
0.75 gm Dried Ginger
?? Mixed Peppercorns (crushed)
10 gm Sweet Orange Peel
5 gm Lemon Peel

European Ale at the lower end of the range

Any suggestions?



Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: tomsawyer on July 22, 2011, 01:49:42 pm
Except for the cumin and ginger it looks like a nice wit.  I have made a couple of ginger ales, never used cumin.  I'm afraid it would taste like tacos.  I'd halve the hops, no need to have discernable hop bitterness when you have all those spices.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on July 22, 2011, 02:52:35 pm
Except for the cumin and ginger it looks like a nice wit.  I have made a couple of ginger ales, never used cumin.  I'm afraid it would taste like tacos.  I'd halve the hops, no need to have discernable hop bitterness when you have all those spices.

Wit but no raw wheat? You can't live your whole life being afraid  ;) cumin beer could go nicely with tacos too.  With that size of addition I'm hoping to get just a touch of earthiness, bitterness and its flowery aroma.  Maybe I'll move it to a dry hop addition or take it down to 0.5 gm and increase the ginger to 1 gram.  Do you get that much bitterness from your ginger beers? I haven't noticed a bitter character but I normally use fresh skinned ginger for my brews.  As far as bitterness goes you might be right, I'm just looking for a refreshing edge so perhaps I'll lessen the amount of fwh.  cheers, j

No other thoughts?
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: gmac on July 22, 2011, 02:58:05 pm
It looks very interesting to me.  Mrs. GMAC hates cumin (although she's getting it in her taco's whether she likes it or not) so when I told her your idea she said "Eww..."  But, she's usually wrong so who cares (thank goodness she doesn't have an AHA account).

I think it would be good but what do I know.  Go for it.  I do think scaling back the cumin to the "hey, what's that...can't quite place it but it's nice" range would be good.  Do you think that will clash with the lemon?  Just curious since I've never thought of those two tastes together.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on July 22, 2011, 03:56:04 pm
It looks very interesting to me.  Mrs. GMAC hates cumin (although she's getting it in her taco's whether she likes it or not) so when I told her your idea she said "Eww..."  But, she's usually wrong so who cares (thank goodness she doesn't have an AHA account).

I think it would be good but what do I know.  Go for it.  I do think scaling back the cumin to the "hey, what's that...can't quite place it but it's nice" range would be good.  Do you think that will clash with the lemon?  Just curious since I've never thought of those two tastes together.

It does seem like you either love or hate cumin, no middle ground. In food i love the flavor of cumin with citrus, but I've never had it in a beer.  Just as a quick experiment, I just made this

mug of 160f water
1/8 tsp of cumin powder (don't have fresh seeds on hand)
1/4 tsp of ginger powder (don't have fresh on hand)
and a TBS of Orange Peel

I let it steep for a while and I thought it had potential.  Good earthy orangey flavor with a heat bite.  Who knows, I'll keep toying with the idea.  cheers, j
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: morticaixavier on July 26, 2011, 08:58:43 am
I think it might be amazing. I love cumin so put me in the 'love it' column but still I think the floral aspect might be really nice in a simple low hop bitter type ale. + 1 on cutting down the hops though. I think often times people underestimate the value of a low hop spiced beer. especially low gravity ones.

**EDIT** although I might go with a pale malt instead of pils as I am not sure how that sweetness would play. but that's just me. I think of pils malt as more of a german/austrian thing and they have been all about the hops for so long where as the more scottish/irish 'screw the english and all there effing hops' attitude works well with spices and herbs. course then there is the belgians.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on July 26, 2011, 10:46:17 am
I think it might be amazing. I love cumin so put me in the 'love it' column but still I think the floral aspect might be really nice in a simple low hop bitter type ale. + 1 on cutting down the hops though. I think often times people underestimate the value of a low hop spiced beer. especially low gravity ones.

**EDIT** although I might go with a pale malt instead of pils as I am not sure how that sweetness would play. but that's just me. I think of pils malt as more of a german/austrian thing and they have been all about the hops for so long where as the more scottish/irish 'screw the english and all there effing hops' attitude works well with spices and herbs. course then there is the belgians.

I'm scared to go dry with the cumin, since I have to start somewhere I'm going to start sweetish and see what I think. I agree with both of you on hop flavor and bitterness, but I have an inkling that the hop aroma will go nicely in this ale (I did lower the bitterness a bit).  I'm not sure what region this beer would belong to, perhaps it's a beer without a home.  Here's my latest thoughts.  cheers, j

5.5 gal, 1.046ish, 12.5ibu

Mash @ 151 for 50 min, 2 qt/lb
6 lb Pils
3.25 lb Mild or Special Aromatic or mix
12 oz CaraWheat 56L

0.35 oz Perle @ FWH
1.8 oz Perle @ 2 minutes

Spices @ 5 minutes
0.75 gm Cumin
0.75 gm Dried Ginger or fresh
10 gm Sweet Orange Peel
5 gm Lemon Peel

European Ale at the lower end of the range


Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: 1vertical on July 27, 2011, 10:55:50 pm
Jay, My summer beers tend to be Saisons because of the higher ambient temps
and that lends itself well to the parameters of those yeast strains for the most part. ;)

Do post back and tell me how that cumin in a beer fares on the taste budz.....
I would be more inclined to try cardamom...
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: euge on July 28, 2011, 12:12:10 am
I love cumin or "comino" but fear a small amount will go a very long way in a beer. Interesting though. I'd leave out the pepper and just go with the ginger and citrus. The cumin I'd use as cracked toasted seeds and not as a powder.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: tomsawyer on July 28, 2011, 07:13:19 am
Wit but no raw wheat?

Oops for some reason I thought I saw wheat in the grist.  As for cumin I'll have to steep some and see what kind of flavor it imparts to a bottle of beer.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on July 28, 2011, 09:30:49 am
Jay, My summer beers tend to be Saisons because of the higher ambient temps
and that lends itself well to the parameters of those yeast strains for the most part. ;)

Do post back and tell me how that cumin in a beer fares on the taste budz.....
I would be more inclined to try cardamom...

Yeah, hard to beat a good saison (this recipe could easily be a saison).  I'll post back just a warning though caraway spaghetti is first on the list.  ;) I have a winter beer with cardamom and cocoa, a spiced brown ale.  cheers, j
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: 1vertical on July 28, 2011, 09:59:04 am
 ;D You took your own thread off topic...so I guess I can comment.

You will NOT be sorry that you tried caraway in/on your spaghetti....!
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on July 28, 2011, 01:49:25 pm
I love cumin or "comino" but fear a small amount will go a very long way in a beer. Interesting though. I'd leave out the pepper and just go with the ginger and citrus. The cumin I'd use as cracked toasted seeds and not as a powder.

You're going down the same thought path I went down, it appears.  Pepper is out.  I've made several great ginger citrus beers so it's time to try the cumin.  I did a lot of thinking on the cumin; if this were food I'd agree completely on the cracked and the toasting of a portion of the seeds.  But I think on this one I'm going to start with uncracked and untoasted.  My reasoning is that the toasting changes the flavor to a nutty character and drives off the delicate oils although some of those oils are bitter.  I'm still debating where to use the cumin; in the boil or as a dry hop addition.  As far as cracking the seeds, I like both flavors (cracked and uncracked) but I'm hoping that the earthy subtle character of the whole seeds works better in the beer.  Who knows.  Cheers, j
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: euge on July 28, 2011, 09:28:56 pm
Isn't it traditional/conventional to spice during the last minutes of the boil? Like at 5 minutes.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on July 29, 2011, 10:55:57 am
Isn't it traditional/conventional to spice during the last minutes of the boil? Like at 5 minutes.

Euge you're killing me.  :) Traditional cumin beer?  IMO it all depends on the spice and the desired character; my spiced winter ale is entirely dry spiced, no boil additions. 
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: euge on July 29, 2011, 12:10:05 pm
 ;D

Always teasing back the layers to reveal the interesting bits inside.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on July 30, 2011, 11:26:50 am
Always teasing back the layers to reveal the interesting bits inside.

Haha. What were your thoughts on the uncracked untoasted?  Right now the recipe is just postulation (starting to sound good though).
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: euge on July 30, 2011, 12:15:01 pm
Uncracked untoasted... I'm liking this better. After sticking my nose in a jar of comino again I'm thinking this will have to be a subtle hint of cumin.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: 1vertical on July 30, 2011, 01:11:54 pm
I've recently discovered how NICELY this flavor (whole uncracked) performs in
my Spanish Rice!!!

(after all, it's another layer)
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on August 01, 2011, 10:45:53 am
I've recently discovered how NICELY this flavor (whole uncracked) performs in
my Spanish Rice!!!

good to hear.  how would you describe the flavor difference, between cracked and uncracked?

euge, I agree.  I'm shooting for a soft character.

No other thoughts/suggestions (anyone)?
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: Al Equihua on August 01, 2011, 11:33:04 am
nice recipe... ill be afraid to of cumin to, but sound interesting for shure,

I dont really know who is the responsible for adding cumin to tacos!!? and the idea that Mexican food should be that kind of spicy haha, if you go for breakfast or dinner in a Home Town Buffet: tacos, menudo with a lot of cumin!, and adding cheddar cheese (supostly mexican style cheese) thats really fake mexican food, be ware!,

cheers
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: 1vertical on August 01, 2011, 02:02:41 pm
I've recently discovered how NICELY this flavor (whole uncracked) performs in
my Spanish Rice!!!

good to hear.  how would you describe the flavor difference, between cracked and uncracked?

euge, I agree.  I'm shooting for a soft character.

No other thoughts/suggestions (anyone)?
Jay when the cumin is whole, there is not much going on until the kernel is broken open then a surge
of flavor comes down the pike....more bite and pungent than pre ground.But not till you crush it open.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: Slowbrew on August 01, 2011, 02:13:41 pm
nice recipe... ill be afraid to of cumin to, but sound interesting for shure,

I dont really know who is the responsible for adding cumin to tacos!!? and the idea that Mexican food should be that kind of spicy haha, if you go for breakfast or dinner in a Home Town Buffet: tacos, menudo with a lot of cumin!, and adding cheddar cheese (supostly mexican style cheese) thats really fake mexican food, be ware!,

cheers

If you add just a minimal amount of cumin you get a very nice background flavor but no heat.  For spiciness I use different peppers whole, flaked or powdered.  Cumin just adds what folks in the States have been taught to associate with "Mexican" food. 

We have a small hole in the wall restaurant close to our house the whole family loves.  It will never be confused with Tex-Mex".

Great!  Now I'm hungry again.

Once you settle on your recipe I may have to give this beer a go.

Paul
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on August 01, 2011, 03:41:09 pm
Jay when the cumin is whole, there is not much going on until the kernel is broken open then a surge
of flavor comes down the pike....more bite and pungent than pre ground.But not till you crush it open.

Got it, I think; you're just saying that when you buy whole seed you prefer that character over the pre-ground cumin seed powder?

I'm wondering if the five minutes of boiling wouldn't still extract a subtle flavor from fresh uncracked seeds

If you add just a minimal amount of cumin you get a very nice background flavor but no heat. 

This sounds like experience speaking.  I'm definitely looking for background flavor with just a hint of heat from the ginger.  Let me know if you have any more experience to share.

Al & Paul, we also have fantastic Mexican food here.  We actually have about a dozen Mexican restaurants and only 3 of the families (two are Mexican and 1 is american) produce the americanized crap.  Man I hate it when mex food is loaded with cheese, cheddar or not.  Al, I like cumin mostly for Indian food, some Mediterranean and some Spanish dishes.  Cheers, j
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: Al Equihua on August 01, 2011, 04:34:38 pm
Al & Paul, we also have fantastic Mexican food here.  We actually have about a dozen Mexican restaurants and only 3 of the families (two are Mexican and 1 is american) produce the americanized crap.  Man I hate it when mex food is loaded with cheese, cheddar or not.  Al, I like cumin mostly for Indian food, some Mediterranean and some Spanish dishes.  Cheers, j


i agreed with you. it should be most Indian style food than mexican. and believe me, there just a few good places in the US when serve authentic and not that spicy. I prefer a little decent cuantity of cumin in some seafood dishes, excelent!!, haha now im hungry now!,

it makes me think that i should be tried cumin for my next Witbier, yesterday i opened a bottle of my fisrt Wit and taste great. Perhaps, little more of orange peeling and a little bit of coriander and chamomille and yes, will tried the cumin.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: tschmidlin on August 05, 2011, 02:24:06 am
Got it, I think; you're just saying that when you buy whole seed you prefer that character over the pre-ground cumin seed powder?

I'm wondering if the five minutes of boiling wouldn't still extract a subtle flavor from fresh uncracked seeds
Probably - it works using whole seed in oil, it would probably work in wort.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on August 05, 2011, 03:32:14 pm
Probably - it works using whole seed in oil, it would probably work in wort.

I'm thinking so, if not then I'll have to keep brewing it till I get enough of the flavor or I've had enough of the flavor. 

I'm on brewing hiatus for a little while, but any day now I hope to get this one going.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: 1vertical on August 05, 2011, 03:42:43 pm
Jay, just make some spaghetti and sprinkle a little caraway on and in it....
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on August 05, 2011, 04:08:36 pm
Jay, just make some spaghetti and sprinkle a little caraway on and in it....


oh for crying out loud  :)

I know you don't believe me, but it's still on the list...patience grasshopper

I'm on an “everything hiatus.”  The good news is that the garden is brimming with tomatoes that are just about ripe so the caraway spaghetti will definitely come soon and before the cumin beer or any beer for that matter. 

I've been eating the same meals for a few months now (blueberry-banana-greek yogurt-almond shake for breakfast, the stirfry with garden vegs and a small amount of chicken or pork for lunch, and a few salads throughout the day.  It doesn't weigh me down and the heavy amounts of ginger and sambal oelek in the stirfry are keeping me going.  cheers, j
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: gmac on August 05, 2011, 04:16:20 pm
Wow, based on your avatar photo, I would have thought you were a meat and potatoes kind of guy.
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: ryang on August 10, 2011, 03:48:13 pm
for what it's worth, my wit has cumin, orange, coriander, and cardamom.  it's awesome.  1/4 tsp cumin crushed added at flameout (no harm in dry-spicing).

no one has guessed the ingredients while drinking it, then have an epiphany when I tell them.  the complexity is great.  has won multiple golds.

 
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on August 10, 2011, 09:23:08 pm
Wow, based on your avatar photo, I would have thought you were a meat and potatoes kind of guy.

mmm do i love a beautiful rib eye.  unfortunately I can't digest beef and rarely eat it now days.  I do fit in the occasional hamburger though.  as the temperature cools around mid fall I have an easier time digesting heavier meals.

check out the following link for the description of my avitar.  cheers, j

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=4681.msg54689#msg54689 (http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=4681.msg54689#msg54689)
Title: Re: Summer Beer
Post by: jaybeerman on August 11, 2011, 01:39:38 pm
for what it's worth, my wit has cumin, orange, coriander, and cardamom.  it's awesome.  1/4 tsp cumin crushed added at flameout (no harm in dry-spicing).

no one has guessed the ingredients while drinking it, then have an epiphany when I tell them.  the complexity is great.  has won multiple golds.

 

thanks,  i'll have to weigh a 1/4 tsp and see how it compares to my original thoughts