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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: pricepeeler on August 16, 2011, 02:18:16 PM

Title: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: pricepeeler on August 16, 2011, 02:18:16 PM
All,
I brewed a batch of "American Ale" last night and then added Fermentis yeast to my carboy.  Then shook it all up.
I feel like I am not seeing activity in my fermenter.
Refrigeration at about 66-68

What are my options?
-add another culture?
-trash the batch and start over? I would never just throw it away.
-up the temp?

Thank you,
Price

(http://homefitnessguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Carboy.jpg)
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: bonjour on August 16, 2011, 02:24:53 PM
Refrigeration at about 66-68

What are my options?
-add another culture?
-trash the batch and start over? I would never just throw it away.
-up the temp?
Wort temp is what is important, not Refrigeration temp.

Up the temp? --- never

wait for now.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: theDarkSide on August 16, 2011, 02:25:04 PM
Patience young patawan...wait it out.

Funny joke ..."Is that a Pith Helmet?  No, merely condensation" ( you missed a letter in your subject...couldn't resist :)
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: gymrat on August 16, 2011, 02:32:39 PM
Yeast doesn't always go berserk. I often get long slow fermentations with S 05. Your beer is probably doing fine.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: Jimmy K on August 16, 2011, 02:36:09 PM
Patience young patawan...wait it out.

Funny joke ..."Is that a Pith Helmet?  No, merely condensation" ( you missed a letter in your subject...couldn't resist :)

My yeatht is really pithed, mithter!

Sorry, really bad.

I think you'll be fine, and the beer too.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: pricepeeler on August 16, 2011, 02:41:13 PM
My first instinct was to leave it alone and do nothing, so I guess I am doing pretty well so far.

Just wanted to double check the steps I have taken, and tell you all the steps I restrained myself from taking.

Will keep you posted,
Thank you,
Price
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: majorvices on August 16, 2011, 03:39:25 PM
Often times dry yeast can take 12-24 hours to start up. I certainly wouldn't stress about a 10 hour lag. I have seen 42 hour lags that made fine beer before. RDWHAHB.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: Joe Sr. on August 16, 2011, 03:47:40 PM
That photo look to me like it's fermenting.

That's also a lot of head space, so maybe you're not seeing much activity in the airlock yet.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: tom on August 16, 2011, 03:49:41 PM
I like to rehydrate dry yeast per their instructions:  http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
If you pitch straight into the wort 50% of the yeast don't survive.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: hugh_jass on August 16, 2011, 03:53:21 PM
I like to rehydrate dry yeast per their instructions:  http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
If you pitch straight into the wort 50% of the yeast don't survive.
Tom,
do you have a link for that info?  I direct pitch frequently.  I'd like to know if I'm doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: tom on August 16, 2011, 03:58:56 PM
Yep  http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: hugh_jass on August 16, 2011, 04:08:25 PM
The link does not discuss a 50% yeast mortality rate when pitching directly into wort.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: theDarkSide on August 16, 2011, 04:27:18 PM
This is from the Lallemand/Danstar site ( the 50% number is thrown around in the homebrewing world, and probably accurate ):

Why is rehydrating the dry yeast before pitching important?

Dry beer yeast needs to be reconstituted in a gentle way. During rehydration the cell membrane undergoes changes which can be lethal to yeast. In order to reconstitute the yeast as gently as possible (and minimize/avoid any damage) yeast producers developed specific rehydration procedures. Although most dry beer yeast will work if pitched directly into wort, it is recommended to follow the rehydration instructions to insure the optimum performance of the yeast.

Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: majorvices on August 16, 2011, 04:33:03 PM
Having both rehydrated and pitched directly onto the wort side by side many times I can't really say I have noticed a difference either way.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: corkybstewart on August 16, 2011, 04:38:35 PM
Here some info from the source:


Dr Clayton Cone the Yeast Guru from Lallemand had an interesting discussion with Dan Litermann on the Homebrewers Digest ( hbd.org ) about rehydrating BACK IN 2000 .

.
Subject: Yeast Q's- Dan Listerman- Dr. Cone
Date: 2000-04-14 20:56:55 GMT
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707@compuserve.com>
Subject: Yeast Hydration, Infusion Mashing and England

My question to Dr. Cone regards yeast rehydration. All the packages of
yeast contain instructions for rehydration yet they all ferment just fine
without it. I have to believe that such a procedure may be theoretically
beneficial, however it would seem to be margionally usefull at least on a
homebrew scale.

I own a home brew shop and a very common phone call is the " My beer is not
fermenting." problem. I go through the list of potential causes ( plastic
bucket lid leaks, too cold, ect.) About twice a week the caller will
indicate that he rehydreated the yeast. This is a strong signal that the
yeast has been damaged and will need to be replaced. I have come to the
conclusion that, since rehydration is not necessary to ferment beer
properly and there is a strong chance that the yeast will be damaged in a
botched rehydration, it is not desirable to recommend such a proceedure.
Just how important is rehydration and is it worth the risk?

Dan Listermann dan@listermann.com 72723.1707@compuserve.com

Dan,
I appreciate your dilemma It is a universal problem for those that market
Active Dry Yeast.

Let me give you some facts regarding rehydration and you can decide for
yourself where you want to compromise.
Every strain of yeast has its own optimum rehydration temperature. All of
them range between 95 F to 105F. Most of them closer to 105F. The dried
yeast cell wall is fragile and it is the first few minutes (possibly
seconds) of rehydration that the warm temperature is critical while it is
reconstituting its cell wall structure.

As you drop the initial temperature of the water from 95 to 85 or 75 or 65F
the yeast leached out more and more of its insides damaging the each cell.
The yeast viability also drops proportionally. At 95 - 105 F, there is
100% recovery of the viable dry yeast. At 60F, there can be as much as 60%
dead cells.

The water should be tap water with the normal amount of hardness present.
The hardness is essential for good recovery. 250 -500 ppm hardness is
ideal. This means that deionized or distilled water should not be used.
Ideally, the warm rehydration water should contain about 0.5 - 1.0% yeast
extract

For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast
cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic
materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast
normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right
in and seriously damage the cells. The moment that the cell wall is
properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of
the cell. That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or
must. Very dilute wort seems to be OK.

We recommend that the rehydrated yeast be added to the wort within 30
minutes. We have built into each cell a large amount of glycogen and
trehalose that give the yeast a burst of energy to kick off the growth
cycle when it is in the wort. It is quickly used up if the yeast is
rehydrated for more than 30 minutes. There is no damage done here if it is
not immediatly add to the wort. You just do not get the added benefit of
that sudden burst of energy. We also recommend that you attemperate the
rehydrated yeast to with in 15F of the wort before adding to the wort.
Warm yeast into a cold wort will cause many of the yeast to produce petite
mutants that will never grow or ferment properly and will cause them to
produce H2S. The attemperation can take place over a very brief period by
adding, in encrements, a small amount of the cooler wort to the rehydrated
yeast.

Many times we find that warm water is added to a very cold container that
drops the rehydrating water below the desired temperature.

Sometimes refrigerated, very cold, dry yeast is added directly to the warm
water with out giving it time to come to room temperature. The initial
water intering the cell is then cool.

How do many beer and wine makers have successful fermentations when they
ignore all the above? I believe that it is just a numbers game. Each gram
of Active Dry Yeast contains about 20 billion live yeast cells. If you
slightly damage the cells, they have a remarkable ability to recover in the
rich wort. If you kill 60% of the cell you still have 8 billion cells per
gram that can go on to do the job at a slower rate.

The manufacturer of Active Dry Beer Yeast would be remiss if they offered
rehydration instructions that were less than the very best that their data
indicated.

One very important factor that the distributor and beer maker should keep
in mind is that Active Dry Yeast is dormant or inactive and not inert, so
keep refrigerated at all times. Do not store in a tin roofed warehouse
that becomes an oven or on a window sill that gets equally hot.

Active Dry Yeast looses about 20% of its activity in a year when it is
stored at 75 F and only 4% when refrigerated.

The above overview of rehydration should tell you that there is a very best
way to rehydrate. It should also tell you where you are safe in adapting
the rehydration procedure to fit your clients.

Clayton Cone.
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: denny on August 16, 2011, 05:01:59 PM
Having both rehydrated and pitched directly onto the wort side by side many times I can't really say I have noticed a difference either way.

THIS^^^^
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: pricepeeler on August 17, 2011, 03:15:05 PM
We have noticeable "liftoff"!

@34 Hours.
(http://homefitnessguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/34-Hour-Carboy.jpg)
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: ynotbrusum on August 19, 2011, 01:36:11 AM
Congrats - it is looking good now!

As to Dr. Cone, the most interesting aspect was the temperature issue.  I have been rehydrating dry yeast and for lagers, I let it get creamy at warm temperatures and then put it in the fridge to pitch it at 46-52F later on.  I was wondering about the effect on the yeast of doing that and it seems the optimal way to go on rehydrated lager yeast.

 :)
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: tom on August 19, 2011, 01:38:24 AM
Having both rehydrated and pitched directly onto the wort side by side many times I can't really say I have noticed a difference either way.

THIS^^^^
Do any triangle tests? ;)
Title: Re: Pithed Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: majorvices on August 19, 2011, 12:51:17 PM
Having both rehydrated and pitched directly onto the wort side by side many times I can't really say I have noticed a difference either way.

THIS^^^^
Do any triangle tests? ;)

[Bones' voice mode on]Dammit Tom, I'm a Brewer not a Scientist!!![/Bones' voice mode off]
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: tom on August 19, 2011, 06:24:20 PM
And we're d@mned glad you are!
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: pricepeeler on August 20, 2011, 06:05:31 PM
BTW - Still looking good @ 108 hours in.
(http://homefitnessguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/108-hours-in-primary.jpg)
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: beersk on August 22, 2011, 03:39:37 PM
Good to know.  I pitched US-05 last night at 68F as I couldn't chill it down to fermentation temp (around 64F) with my tap water.  So, I had to let it fall down to pitching temp, which I wasn't a fan of doing.  Hoping it's okay, guess it's gonna be a learning experience.  But this morning this was still no activity.  Did notice the temperature change was sucking some of the sanitizer solution from the airlock into the fermenter though.  Argh.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: Hokerer on August 22, 2011, 05:47:59 PM
Good to know.  I pitched US-05 last night at 68F as I couldn't chill it down to fermentation temp (around 64F) with my tap water.  So, I had to let it fall down to pitching temp, which I wasn't a fan of doing.  Hoping it's okay, guess it's gonna be a learning experience.  But this morning this was still no activity.  Did notice the temperature change was sucking some of the sanitizer solution from the airlock into the fermenter though.  Argh.

Are you saying you pitched at 68F and then let it fall to 64F?  If that's the case, you're fine as long as you can keep the temp from ramping back up (which active fermentation will cause to happen).

And on the airlock thing, that's exactly the reason you put sanitizer in the airlock.  No harm done.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: beersk on August 22, 2011, 06:03:10 PM
Good to know.  I pitched US-05 last night at 68F as I couldn't chill it down to fermentation temp (around 64F) with my tap water.  So, I had to let it fall down to pitching temp, which I wasn't a fan of doing.  Hoping it's okay, guess it's gonna be a learning experience.  But this morning this was still no activity.  Did notice the temperature change was sucking some of the sanitizer solution from the airlock into the fermenter though.  Argh.

Are you saying you pitched at 68F and then let it fall to 64F?  If that's the case, you're fine as long as you can keep the temp from ramping back up (which active fermentation will cause to happen).

And on the airlock thing, that's exactly the reason you put sanitizer in the airlock.  No harm done.

I figured as much.  Thanks for your input.  I'm not used to NOT being able to chill the wort down to fermentation temps or lower.  So this is kind of a first.  My fermentation chamber is ranging from 58F or so to about 64F.  So I don't think it'll be too much of an issue.  
For those of you with Johnson controllers, what are your settings?  Mine are:
SP = 64F
diF = 2
aSD = 10

The others are zero, I think.  I seem to have about a 7 or 8 degree temp swing.

EDIT: I guess I should mention that this is my first beer with a the chest freezer and Johnson Controller.  The temperature probe is dangling in the air.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: pricepeeler on August 22, 2011, 08:41:38 PM
Temp Prob calibrations
SD: 66 F
dif = 2
Not sure what aSD is, will look when I get home.
My temperature probe is dangling in the air too. 

Price
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: pricepeeler on August 22, 2011, 08:43:41 PM
How are you having such a temperature swing if your dif is set to two?
Mine stays off at 66 and as soon as 68 is reached, the compressor turns on.
Maybe I just did not understand what you meant.

Thanks,
Price
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: beersk on August 22, 2011, 09:02:45 PM
I'm not sure why I get the temp swings.  I guess that's why I'm asking.  Some have said it's better to put the probe in a jar of water and some say it's better to wrap in bubble wrap and dangle in the air, blah blah blah.  Just seein' what works for y'all.  
I just got my freezer yesterday and all set up, so I'm very new to this stuff.  Before I had a nice cool basement to ferment in that stayed around 60F or so all the time, so I didn't have to worry about this stuff.

The aSD is the cycle time, I think.  
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: pricepeeler on August 22, 2011, 09:18:04 PM
I don't think putting the temp probe in water vs dangling in the air vs attaching to the side of the carboy would make a difference in the way your swings are happening.

Sure my compressor would not turn on right when I opened the door if I had the probe in a jar of water.
We would get more accurate temp readings for the beer with the temp prob attached to the side of the carboy, but don't think it has anything to do with the large swings.

Right now I am just concerned about stable temp, so I just have the temp probe dangling.

Still don't know why you would be having the wild swings unless that aSD cycle time needs calibration, or:

Looking at your post, the dif should make the compressor turn on 2 degrees above your set temp.
Don't know how your temp is set at 64 with a 2 dif, but you said your high is 64 with a low of 58. 
Is the controller set on heat instead of cool? I have the same setting and mine turns on at 68.

hopefully someone with some experience will answer this.

Price
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: beersk on August 23, 2011, 01:53:37 AM
I think it's fine.  The temperature just varies from 58 to 64F, which I don't think will affect the beer at all.  The beer itself is likely to be somewhere in the temperature range plus a few degrees during active fermentation, I reckon.  I guess I'm not too worried about it.  We'll see how my first couple beers turn out.  Thanks for you input though, man.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: ynotbrusum on August 24, 2011, 09:57:26 PM
I have no science to back this up, nor can I say it helps my chest freezer cycle less, but I have the thermistor in a foil bubble wrap and affix it to the side of the fermenter.  Ideally, a thermowell could be used, but I don't use standard carboys for fermenting (I have 14 gallon plastic barrels for 10 gallon batches with a simple grommeted airlock).

YMMV, of course.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: beersk on August 25, 2011, 03:14:14 PM
Gotcha.  I'm starting to feel like it's okay as long as the ambient temperature stays between 58F and 63F.  The beer should be fine.  Don't see a reason to worry otherwise.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: a10t2 on August 25, 2011, 03:39:21 PM
Gotcha.  I'm starting to feel like it's okay as long as the ambient temperature stays between 58F and 63F.  The beer should be fine.  Don't see a reason to worry otherwise.

The only potential problem with controlling the air temperature is that it could make the compressor cycle more often than you want. Measuring the beer temperature would make the controller cycle for longer, less often.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: beersk on August 25, 2011, 03:41:43 PM
Gotcha.  I'm starting to feel like it's okay as long as the ambient temperature stays between 58F and 63F.  The beer should be fine.  Don't see a reason to worry otherwise.

The only potential problem with controlling the air temperature is that it could make the compressor cycle more often than you want. Measuring the beer temperature would make the controller cycle for longer, less often.
I think I'll try this out soon.  How would it attach to the fermenter? Tape wouldn't hold...
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: Hokerer on August 25, 2011, 06:48:48 PM
I think I'll try this out soon.  How would it attach to the fermenter? Tape wouldn't hold...

I attach mine by using enough rubber bands to stretch all the way around the fermenter.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: Pi on August 25, 2011, 07:25:26 PM
I think I'll try this out soon.  How would it attach to the fermenter? Tape wouldn't hold...

I attach mine by using enough rubber bands to stretch all the way around the fermenter.
Velcro will work, but you'll have to wait for when the caroby/fermenter is room temp
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: dano14041 on August 25, 2011, 08:00:46 PM
I think I'll try this out soon.  How would it attach to the fermenter? Tape wouldn't hold...

I attach mine by using enough rubber bands to stretch all the way around the fermenter.

I use blue painters tape to attach mine. Once the temp is stable (wort temp has come up to fermentation temp) and there isn't any condensate on the carboy it works fine; before then, not so much.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: beersk on August 26, 2011, 03:50:21 PM
I use the brew haulers for my carboys, so I stuck the probe between one of the straps and the carboy.  It seems to be working pretty well.  Might stick with that, see how it turns out.
Thanks, fellas.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: linenoiz on August 26, 2011, 05:29:53 PM
I use a couple paper towels folded up to make a pocket for the probe, then just use duct tape to hold it to the side of the bucket. Never had a problem with it falling off.
Title: Re: Pitched Fermentis 10 hours ago, not much/no vigorus activity - see picture
Post by: ynotbrusum on August 27, 2011, 04:23:26 PM
String with a slip knot or just a long bungee cord works great.  Just remember to remove the probe before lifting out the carboy - I've done that before!   :-[