Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: 1vertical on August 22, 2011, 03:00:15 AM

Title: Blot on the landscape
Post by: 1vertical on August 22, 2011, 03:00:15 AM
dang it, it is!
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/Vertical1/wEIRdGReENTExTURE.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/Vertical1/Blotondalandscape1.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/Vertical1/Blotondalandscape2-1.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/Vertical1/Greeniterationaovernover.jpg)

iterations over and over and over....

Glad I don't have to deal with this crap whirlygiggin around my vicinity more than It already is...... :-\
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: euge on August 22, 2011, 03:11:23 AM
When I drive over the road I see these hauled everywhere. We're commiting to them heavily.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: 1vertical on August 22, 2011, 03:15:28 AM
When I drive over the road I see these hauled everywhere. We're commiting to them heavily.
I am sorry these are supposed to be so good....and I fail to understand how that many
iterations of anything can be that "good"....it has gone beyond moderation...hook line and sinker. :-\
I like them when they show out like this....
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPiWg1YEKlj7sfqKyxMdBmX1X-F85tmEKaIo1WPvr2e0BRLsCuBg)
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: woadwarrior on August 22, 2011, 03:58:10 AM
Better looking than this.......
(http://explorepahistory.com/kora/files/1/2/1-2-1072-25-ExplorePAHistory-a0k5z0-a_349.jpg)
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: 1vertical on August 22, 2011, 04:05:20 AM
Sorry, I disagree...
Well, I am the ECOPUNK...I burn shudder  Coal .  Here is why,
BFEwhyomin has  a huge abundance of this fuel.  It is about $60 per ton at the tipple.
Time I get it home factor in another $20.00 a ton...total $80 a ton from the mine to the
stove.  I do not have to seek deadfall in the forest and then cut it and remove chunks
to the truck, then split it , then stack it, then carry it into the house to burn.

All I do is shovel it on the truck, shovel it off the truck in a pile, bring a wheelbarrow
at at time into the garage as needed. 

Then on the burn end, I just add to the previous embers (which last 2-3 DAYS) shake
the ashes out the bottom of the stove and dump em then go on about my buziness. 
Lot less handling than wood and a lot more heat value per ton.
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/Vertical1/Coal1.jpg)

Staying Warm with Mining
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: punatic on August 22, 2011, 05:10:58 AM
Yeah, we have those here too, but we live on the way far side of BFE here.  Wind, solar, geothermal, tidal, biomass... are all we are going to have for power generation here when the ships stop bringing fuel from the mainland. 

(http://www.ltlprints.com/images/0033/5799/335799N01S001_bthumb.png)
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: woadwarrior on August 22, 2011, 05:13:22 AM
It may be an economical way to heat, but I still feel strip mining is more of an eyesore than wind turbines.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: phillamb168 on August 22, 2011, 05:45:52 AM
It may be an economical way to heat, but I still feel strip mining is more of an eyesore than wind turbines.

+1

IIRC, the US has them in 'eyesore' places because of the distances you have to deal with there, and the lack of high-power transmission lines. There are a metric crapton of these things just south of me, in the middle of a million hectares of crop fields. But then again France is just about the size of Texas. The US is vaaaaaast, but Joules' law, she is a b*tch.

I'd still rather have these things in my back yard than the cancer risks associated with coal (and gasoline for that matter).
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: rabid_dingo on August 22, 2011, 06:41:19 AM
Those are probably Vestas, They just opened a facility in my town. But on the Coal side, I had this video that is on my Facebook page. A tape of a coal blast to clear rock...Awesome video. My Mother in law works at a coal mine so when we visit and if we make it to the mine, near Gillette WY, we get to see a blast... Impressive.

The reclamation around the mine is impressive too. The area where the coal has already been mined from looks like it is due for mine expansion. It looks untouched. The only indication that there was a mine there are piles of rocks to allow wildlife areas of "self preservation" from predators, raptors and canines. Mostly for small animals. Hell they have even begun to drill through the reclaimed areas to get to oil (much deeper than coal) and it is stable enough to support the wells.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 22, 2011, 12:43:18 PM
Just about any power generation system is a blot on the landscape. 

Wind vs coal vs hydro vs nuclear vs NG vs solar, and so on.

All have their risks.  Google can show how some have resulted in large loss of life and property.  None of us want our power to go off, so those are acceptable risks.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: 1vertical on August 22, 2011, 01:21:24 PM
It's our dirty little secret that we ALL use products that were mined.
Methinks the metal in your automobile began it's useful life much like
something in that photo above.
And the glass in your windows came from mining trona
and the salt on your table came from either mining salt or mining salt water
And the diamond on your wife's finger..
And the copper water lines in your house...(old School)
And the Gold contacts on your pc board that allows you to compute.
I even worked in an oil mine once...so that too comes from mining altho to a lesser degree
And the rare earth minerals that are put in the mix to make a good thing better...
Sorry I am a mining advocate. We as humans need the end products from mining
to Sustain Our existance as we know it..........

Yeah looking at google earth, pretty much where ever the human footprint is...it is a Blot.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: morticaixavier on August 22, 2011, 03:09:46 PM
I like rooftop solar. I have a dream that every horizontal or semi-horizontal man made surface will have solar panels on them. The big wind farms and big solar farms are an eyesore and an evironmental disaster waiting to happen. Here in CA we have a fair about of wind generation and it is doing a number on raptor populations, not to mention song birds and other 'prey' birds. large scale solar takes huge amounts of land out of natural or cultivatable use. However it is entirely possible in many places around the world to generat enough power to run a house on enough solar panels to cover the roof of said house. With a smart distributed grid this power can be shifted around to where it is needed. The technology may not be there yet. And of course it does require mining (although not mountain top removal) but it is on it's way. I remember reading that in Germany, and this was like 10 years ago, they had managed to acheive around 10% of power needs from residential solar. And that's in a northern climate.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: phillamb168 on August 22, 2011, 03:25:22 PM
I like rooftop solar. I have a dream that every horizontal or semi-horizontal man made surface will have solar panels on them. The big wind farms and big solar farms are an eyesore and an evironmental disaster waiting to happen. Here in CA we have a fair about of wind generation and it is doing a number on raptor populations, not to mention song birds and other 'prey' birds. large scale solar takes huge amounts of land out of natural or cultivatable use. However it is entirely possible in many places around the world to generat enough power to run a house on enough solar panels to cover the roof of said house. With a smart distributed grid this power can be shifted around to where it is needed. The technology may not be there yet. And of course it does require mining (although not mountain top removal) but it is on it's way. I remember reading that in Germany, and this was like 10 years ago, they had managed to acheive around 10% of power needs from residential solar. And that's in a northern climate.

You bred raptors?
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: morticaixavier on August 22, 2011, 03:55:34 PM
I like rooftop solar. I have a dream that every horizontal or semi-horizontal man made surface will have solar panels on them. The big wind farms and big solar farms are an eyesore and an evironmental disaster waiting to happen. Here in CA we have a fair about of wind generation and it is doing a number on raptor populations, not to mention song birds and other 'prey' birds. large scale solar takes huge amounts of land out of natural or cultivatable use. However it is entirely possible in many places around the world to generat enough power to run a house on enough solar panels to cover the roof of said house. With a smart distributed grid this power can be shifted around to where it is needed. The technology may not be there yet. And of course it does require mining (although not mountain top removal) but it is on it's way. I remember reading that in Germany, and this was like 10 years ago, they had managed to acheive around 10% of power needs from residential solar. And that's in a northern climate.

You bred raptors?

Not intentionally, they were all females, I don't know what happened! but it's okay, they only eat BMC drinkers ;D
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: woadwarrior on August 22, 2011, 04:06:34 PM
I also would like to see an increase in rooftop solar. It would be able to greatly lower our dependence on using fossil fuels for energy generation. Especially as the efficiency of them increases, and the tech for making them improves.
<rant>Mining will always be necessary, just not very pretty. There are many areas around PA that are more or less permanent eyesores because the area had been strip mined and the mining company never reclaimed the land. And now we're getting all these shale drilling operations going on. At the moment there are 5 wells less than 1/2 mile from my house. (I check every now and then to see if my water catches fire) Also, just because I realize it's necessary, doesn't mean I'm going to like it.</rant>
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: nicneufeld on August 22, 2011, 04:28:26 PM
I've driven a few times through California and I am always impressed/amused when I pass through the Tehachapi Pass Wind Farm...amazing how many windmills they have there!

Last time I drove by it seemed only some of them were turning, and I had an amusing thought of a bureaucrat proposing this brilliant idea to install hundreds of windmills...and then neglecting to budget for maintenance...and then all these expensive tax-payer funded windmills just start rusting and freezing up.  Probably just not a windy day, but it was an amusing thought that I wouldn't put past CA government, or most any government or bureaucracy!  :D

I don't mind them so much because usually when I see them I've just driven through hundreds of miles of similar looking terrain, so it doesn't seem a big loss, but I can see this being a huge NIMBY issue.  Sure, I don't mind seeing them on my roadtrips through the west, but if some government or power company decided to ruin the skyline from my backporch were I to live in such a beautiful place, I can understand the displeasure.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: bo on August 22, 2011, 04:52:29 PM
If I could afford one, I'd order it today.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: punatic on August 22, 2011, 06:55:29 PM
If I could afford one, I'd order it today.

First you need to determine if you live in an area that justifies the capital outlay.

US Wind Resource Map (http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/wind_maps_none.asp)

Wind Resource Assessment Handbook (http://www.nrel.gov/wind/pdfs/22223.pdf)
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: maxieboy on August 23, 2011, 12:30:23 AM
I also would like to see an increase in rooftop solar. It would be able to greatly lower our dependence on using fossil fuels for energy generation. Especially as the efficiency of them increases, and the tech for making them improves.
<rant>Mining will always be necessary, just not very pretty. There are many areas around PA that are more or less permanent eyesores because the area had been strip mined and the mining company never reclaimed the land. And now we're getting all these shale drilling operations going on. At the moment there are 5 wells less than 1/2 mile from my house. (I check every now and then to see if my water catches fire) Also, just because I realize it's necessary, doesn't mean I'm going to like it.</rant>

Ah, yes. "Fracking", and the Halliburton loophole that doesn't require companies using this technique to disclose the chemicals used in the process. Scary...
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: woadwarrior on August 23, 2011, 01:15:32 AM
Oh yeah. There's also at least 1 holding pond within that 1/2 mile also. And on top of all that, despite a budget deficit like pretty much every other state out there, PA is the only state not taxing them.

[Mod Edit]Play nicely! Politics and the internet are a flammable combination.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: phillamb168 on August 23, 2011, 05:48:09 AM
If I could afford one, I'd order it today.

First you need to determine if you live in an area that justifies the capital outlay.

US Wind Resource Map (http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/wind_maps_none.asp)

Wind Resource Assessment Handbook (http://www.nrel.gov/wind/pdfs/22223.pdf)

Hey, nice resource, thanks for posting.

@woadwarrior, You're new so you get a pass, but remember, try to keep politics out of the forum.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: punatic on August 23, 2011, 06:20:32 AM
Occasionally we wander into a topic that I know something about.  Depending on the day, and how much homemade Very Old Dark Kilauea Ale I've consumed I might choose to mix work with pleasure and wade in.

I've tried wind power generation here at the house.  I sold my turbines to someone who lives where it makes sense to have them.  You have to mount them pretty high for them to work. PV power generation and solar water heating does work here.  

Working on PV to hydrogen (electrolisis) energy storage to fuel cell power generation. (oops... did I say the out loud?)

A parallel thread of interest:
Cleaning Air From Factories (http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=8860.0)

+1 on the political thing.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: phillamb168 on August 23, 2011, 07:41:09 AM
Occasionally we wander into a topic that I know something about.  Depending on the day, and how much homemade Very Old Dark Kilauea Ale I've consumed I might choose to mix work with pleasure and wade in.

I've tried wind power generation here at the house.  I sold my turbines to someone who lives where it makes sense to have them.  You have to mount them pretty high for them to work. PV power generation and solar water heating does work here.  

Working on PV to hydrogen (electrolisis) energy storage to fuel cell power generation. (oops... did I say the out loud?)

A parallel thread of interest:
Cleaning Air From Factories (http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=8860.0)

+1 on the political thing.

In terms of all this, how 'sustainable' is this solution? I'm not thinking in terms of x cost to the environment, but rather in terms of how long the equipment will last, how often it needs to be replaced, etc... One of the benefits of, say, an old-school gas generator is that pretty much everything in it could be replaced with a re-tooled part and you could keep it going just on know-how for a long, long time. I realize that windmills at their simplest are quite easy to build (it's just a wind-powered dynamo) but what about the fuel cell stuff?

I'm keen to invest in something renewable if for no other reason than I want to try to be as off-grid as humanly possible, but I don't want to have to keep buying things every three years.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: punatic on August 23, 2011, 08:42:28 AM
Currently (pun intended) lead-acid batteries are rated for ten years of useful life.  If maintained properly they may last even longer.  PV panels can last more than 20 years (perhaps way longer).

It's the payback period that makes it work.  Hawaii Electric Light Company (HELCO) charged me 48₵ per kWh on my last bill.  756 kWh cost me $363.  Can you live on 756 kWh/month?

At that rate, and with tax incentives, it doesn't take long to pay off PV panels, batteries and an inverter.

On sunny days we often over-generate what we are using and can store in our batteries.  Plus, lead-acid batteries are ineffcient, and pretty nasty technology.  PV to hydrogen into fuel cells (just like the space shuttle) back to electricity (and pure water) has promise, albeit expensive promise at this time.  

Another path along the same lines is hydrogen to fuel an (polution free) internal combustion engine that turns a generator, or hydrogen as a fuel for a combustion turbine generator...  Space shuttle main engines were hydrogen combustion powered.

A big problem with that is H2 is it is a really small molecule and can leak through some really small spaces when in pressurized storage.

But again  I say, biodiesel produced by algae storing energy from the sun in fatty acids is the future.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: phillamb168 on August 23, 2011, 08:52:42 AM
But again  I say, biodiesel produced by algae storing energy from the sun in fatty acids is the future.

I keep seeing mention of this and think it would be really cool.

Of course, I'm still a fan of inertial electrostatic confinement fusion. Props to the Navy for continuing to fund what Bussard spent his life working on.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: punatic on August 23, 2011, 09:36:09 AM
And there is always zero point energy to consider too.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: phillamb168 on August 23, 2011, 09:53:31 AM
And there is always zero point energy to consider too.

I wasn't joking about IEC... In my opinion as a student of theoretical physics (a long time ago), it's a perfectly reasonable approach to fusion.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: woadwarrior on August 23, 2011, 11:03:55 AM
My apologies to the board. Was not trying to be political.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 23, 2011, 11:44:27 AM
When I was a kid in the Midwest, windmills were everywhere in farm country.  Those were often the tallest thing on the farm, and the first thing you would often see as the car went down the road.  What is old is new again.  You can still get replacement parts.

I don't remember seeing one of these in years.  Many farmers went to electric motor pumps once they got electicity.

First hit from a Google seach.
http://www.windmills.net/
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: Kit B on August 23, 2011, 01:32:44 PM
I like rooftop solar. I have a dream that every horizontal or semi-horizontal man made surface will have solar panels on them.

We get enough large hail & tornadic winds in this area, there's just no way I can commit to that.
...Not on my personal dime, anyway.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: richardt on August 23, 2011, 01:56:26 PM
Saw a bumper sticker on a old pickup the other day:  "If you don't grow it, you mine it."

http://www.mii.org/teachercom.html (http://www.mii.org/teachercom.html) 
A good website for those who want to learn more about mining (history, necessity, impact, environment, etc.) 
Might as well be informed about a topic if one is going to discuss/debate it.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: morticaixavier on August 23, 2011, 02:43:55 PM
I like rooftop solar. I have a dream that every horizontal or semi-horizontal man made surface will have solar panels on them.

We get enough large hail & tornadic winds in this area, there's just no way I can commit to that.
...Not on my personal dime, anyway.

yeah that is a problem. but just an engineering one. Germany set it up in an interesting way. They mandated that the power companies had to buy back excess capacity from residential solar at 3x market for 3 or 4 years, basically paid for the equipment and installation. Then back to market value. It moves the power companies from a position of producer to that of distributer but still plenty of profit to me made I imagine. Heck if you take the real costs of environmental impact and toxic disposal off the table for the power companies I would imagine it increases the bottom line.
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: 1vertical on August 23, 2011, 02:46:15 PM
Saw a bumper sticker on a old pickup the other day:  "If you don't grow it, you mine it."

http://www.mii.org/teachercom.html (http://www.mii.org/teachercom.html)  
A good website for those who want to learn more about mining (history, necessity, impact, environment, etc.)  
Might as well be informed about a topic if one is going to discuss/debate it.

I was an underground miner for about 7 years...methinks that qualifies. ;D

BTW nice site thanks
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: loopy on August 24, 2011, 02:38:19 AM
I like thorium technology
Title: Re: Blot on the landscape
Post by: 1vertical on August 24, 2011, 02:57:42 AM
I would like to find a deposit of monazite.... ::)