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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: dano14041 on August 29, 2011, 03:42:03 PM

Title: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: dano14041 on August 29, 2011, 03:42:03 PM
Not saying I did this...  :-X but, say you had a mash schedule of 122F for 30 min, 145F for 15 min, and 154F for 45 min have?

The 122F is the protein rest (unnecessary, but sometimes just fun to do)
The 154F is scarification rest, hopefully for a medium body.
What effect would the 145F rest have? Just a beta-amalayse rest so maybe more fermentable wort?

Thanks!
Dano
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: dmtaylor on August 29, 2011, 05:18:32 PM
The 145 F rest will tend to dry out the beer more than if you had only done a 154 F rest.  The net result, I think, is approximately equivalent to what you would get if you had instead done a single rest at about 152 F for 45 to 60 minutes.  Might be fun, or you might have some process reason for doing this, but if you're just doing it for the heck of it without good reason, you might want to consider it a wasted effort and just pick one temperature in between in the future.  FWIW, I don't do step mashes much.  I mash 90% of my beers at 150 F for 40 minutes.  That's right.  40 minutes at 150 F is great for nearly all styles of beer, and wastes far less time than a step mash or a 60-minute mash, for those of us that care about time (some do, some don't).
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: dano14041 on August 29, 2011, 05:25:50 PM
I don't usually do step mashes either. It was supposed to be a 122F protein rest, then a 154F Sac rest. I missed the step when I went from 122 to 154 and it came out at 145. The 15 mins was how long it took me to bring more water up to a boil so I could adjust the temp to 154F.

I know I don't need the protein rest, but sometimes I do it anyway.

Thanks for the reply!
Dano
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: lazydog79 on August 30, 2011, 02:20:51 AM
Yeah, I learned this the hard way this weekend.  I have occasionally done a protein rest if necessary, but usually do single infusion mashes.  Well, I did a NB Trad. Bock kit this weekend.  They recommended a 3-step mash.  Since I mash in a cooler, I'm obviously doing infusions.  Three infusions got me to s stupid thin mash and cost me about 10 efficiency points.  Oh well, still came in @ 1.064, which should be good for a Bock.  But, I'm not doing steps again unless I absolutely have to!
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: tygo on August 30, 2011, 11:01:14 AM
When I step mash with a protein rest in the cooler I usually do as thick a mash in at the protein rest temp as I think I can get away with (usually 1.0 - 1.25 qts/lb) and then add an infusion to get me up to the next step.  Then if I want to do a third step I'll do either a decoction or a quasi-decoction where I just run off as much wort as I think I need and bring it to just boiling before adding it back into the tun.
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: lazydog79 on August 31, 2011, 01:11:36 AM
When I step mash with a protein rest in the cooler I usually do as thick a mash in at the protein rest temp as I think I can get away with (usually 1.0 - 1.25 qts/lb) and then add an infusion to get me up to the next step.  Then if I want to do a third step I'll do either a decoction or a quasi-decoction where I just run off as much wort as I think I need and bring it to just boiling before adding it back into the tun.

Ahh, a decoctition!  That actually would probably be good with a bock.  I wish I had thought of that Saturday  :P  Actually, I wish I hadn't blindly followed the kit's mash schedule.  I knew better than that.  I thought, "that's a weird mash schedule.  Oh well, they must know something I don't."  Clearly, that schedule only works with a direct-heated MLT.  Like you said, 2-steps doable.  More than that, trouble.  This unfortunately didn't occur to me after until after my third infusion.  Oh well, brew and learn!
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: dano14041 on August 31, 2011, 01:24:18 AM
.... brew and learn!

That, sir, is a good motto!  ;)
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: firedog23 on September 13, 2011, 07:33:56 AM
I am in to my fourth AG bat h and I am still trying to nail down my temperature control. What differences am I going to see if I mash at 154 @ 30 mins compared to 145 @ 30? The first batch turned out well but have a slight concern for the current one that is in the fermenter.
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: tygo on September 13, 2011, 10:15:50 AM
The one mashed at 154 should finish with a higher FG and more residual, unfermentable sugars than the one mashed at 145.
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: tomsawyer on September 13, 2011, 02:07:50 PM
When I do a step mash, I generally do it more like 140F and 158F to really target the temp optima for the beta and alpha amylases individually.  I generally do my longer rest for the beta rather than the alpha.  If I do a protein rest it'll be 120-130F and I typically only use 0.75qt/lb, that seems to be adequate to hydrate the grist and you can stir it OK.  That leaves me more volume for my other two steps.  I can usualy get close to my targets and still wind up with 2qt/lb in the tun or maybe a little more.  I'd note that there is nothing at all wrong with winding up over 2qt/lb, in fact I've mashed at 3+ qt/lb and it works just fine.
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: davidgzach on September 13, 2011, 11:51:06 PM
Dano,

The best temp if you are to do a protein rest is 131 to help with clarity for modified malts.  Optimal temp for a beta-amylase rest is 146F and optimal for alpha-amylase is 158F.  When I step mash I try to stick to this and get 80-85% efficiencies.

Zacher
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: tubercle on September 14, 2011, 12:56:59 AM
Tubercle does what dmtaylor said...sort of.

 Infuse, check temp. Between 148 and 154? always.

 1 beer and cigar later start to drain.

The stress free life is wonderful.
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: denny on September 14, 2011, 01:03:04 AM
I am in to my fourth AG bat h and I am still trying to nail down my temperature control. What differences am I going to see if I mash at 154 @ 30 mins compared to 145 @ 30? The first batch turned out well but have a slight concern for the current one that is in the fermenter.


Are you talking about a step mash or just a single temp?  If a single temp, I'd encourage you to mash longer than 30 min.  But to answer your question, a lower mash temp leads to a more fermentable wort.  That translates to a lighter bodied beer and generally a lower FG.
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: firedog23 on September 14, 2011, 04:58:10 AM
I am in to my fourth AG bat h and I am still trying to nail down my temperature control. What differences am I going to see if I mash at 154 @ 30 mins compared to 145 @ 30? The first batch turned out well but have a slight concern for the current one that is in the fermenter.


Are you talking about a step mash or just a single temp?  If a single temp, I'd encourage you to mash longer than 30 min.  But to answer your question, a lower mash temp leads to a more fermentable wort.  That translates to a lighter bodied beer and generally a lower FG.

I am talking single step mash but I also sparge at 165.  If I am sparing at a higher temp does it matter with the mash temp?
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: tomsawyer on September 14, 2011, 12:19:26 PM
Yes it matters.  The enzymes dissolve in the liquid and once you run those off theres not much further activity going on.

145F is going to give you a dry beer, possibly a loy yield at 30min.  154F for 30min is going to give you a full-bodied result, its more of a compromise temp but the short time favors the faster alpha amylase.
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: Jimmy K on September 14, 2011, 12:44:29 PM
I am talking single step mash but I also sparge at 165.  If I am sparing at a higher temp does it matter with the mash temp?

The sparge temp will generally inactivate any enzymes left in the mash too, so you'll get no more conversion.
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: dano14041 on September 14, 2011, 01:42:36 PM
Tubercle does what dmtaylor said...sort of.

 Infuse, check temp. Between 148 and 154? always.

 1 beer and cigar later start to drain.

The stress free life is wonderful.

I will have to try Tubercle's method some brew day.  :D Sounds like a pretty good brew day!
 
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: richardt on September 14, 2011, 04:24:43 PM
I am talking single step mash but I also sparge at 165.  If I am sparing at a higher temp does it matter with the mash temp?

The sparge temp will generally inactivate any enzymes left in the mash too, so you'll get no more conversion.

If you mash-out around 170 F (hold for 15-20 minutes) you should inactivate any enzymes left in the mash (thereby halting any further conversion of your sugars, aka fixing [or setting] the fermentability).  As long as the pH remains below 6.0, you should be OK if the mash-out temp goes above 170 F.

However, if you conduct a vorlauf and collect your first runnings into the boil kettle you still have not inactivated any enzymes in the wort that is in the BK until you turn on the burner and get the wort heated up well past 170 F.  Same goes for the grains and wort in the mash tun--the 165 F sparge water isn't inactivating  the enzymes (not quickly, anyway), so there's still some conversion taking place. 

Now, factor in how long it is taking you to lauter and sparge. If it is 60 minutes of mashing followed by 60 more minutes of lautering and sparging, then you've got a different wort than if you had done a mash-out at 40-60 minutes.  Both methods may make good beer, but it may be something worth considering if you're trying to make a sweeter, fuller-bodied beer.
Title: Re: Missing Mash Temps
Post by: kramerog on September 14, 2011, 04:55:52 PM
What differences am I going to see if I mash at 154 @ 30 mins compared to 145 @ 30? The first batch turned out well but have a slight concern for the current one that is in the fermenter.

145 F is below the gelatinization temperature of barley malt.  So if you only did a sac rest at 145 F for 30 minutes, you would get a very beer and low efficiency.  If you mash out at a higher temp or sparge with water at a higher temp, you'll also probably end up with a hazy beer due to gelatinizing starch.  That might be a good mash schedule for making a wild beer.