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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: phillamb168 on September 08, 2011, 12:59:23 pm

Title: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: phillamb168 on September 08, 2011, 12:59:23 pm
I asked my local maltster about what he might have that's an equivalent to CaraPils. I told him it's for head retention and is also called Dextrine malt. He sent me two data sheets, and I'm not sure either will be applicable:

Caramel Wheat Malt, 90-110 EBC, Product obtained by custom malting, saccharification and roasting of specially selected wheat, to develop the aroma and colour required.
- Strongly accentuates aroma, thus giving beer a typical taste.
- Reinforces the colour of the beer.
- Enhances foam stability.
- Increases extract and thus brewing yields.
- Colour : 90 to 110 EBC (equiv. 34 to 42 degrees Lovibond).
- Moisture : 7% maximum.
- Extract : minimum 78% on dry matter.

OR

Pilsen Caramel
Product obtained by custom malting, saccharification and roasting of specially selected barley, to develop the aroma and colour required.
- Gives beer mild flavours and a pleasant, subtle taste.
- Improves the smoothness and stability of beer.
- Slightly reinforces the colour of beer.
- Colour : 20 to 30 EBC (equiv. 8 to 12 degrees Lovibond).
- Moisture : 7.5% maximum.
- Extract : minimum 75% (dry matter).


... But neither of these seem like exactly what I'm going for. I suppose I could go the caramel wheat route, which sounds interesting on its own, but that 30-45 L coloration makes me wonder about what contribution it would have (8 oz per 5 gal)
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: majorvices on September 08, 2011, 01:20:26 pm
Obviously it is not Caramel Wheat, but I'd be willing to bet "Pilsner Caramel" is another maltster's version of CaraPils.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: blatz on September 08, 2011, 01:59:02 pm
but I'd be willing to bet "Pilsner Caramel" is another maltster's version of CaraPils.

I dunno Keith - 8-12L seems more like "Carahell" than Carapils/Carafoam/Dextrin which are 2-3L.

if that's the closest thing you can get, Phil, go with it, but its likely to contribute a bit of caramel sweetness
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: hamiltont on September 08, 2011, 02:42:00 pm
A local microbrewer uses wheat for head retention. I never tried it so I can't say how it compares to Cara-Pils. Just a thought anyway...  Cheers!!!
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: majorvices on September 08, 2011, 02:47:16 pm
but I'd be willing to bet "Pilsner Caramel" is another maltster's version of CaraPils.

I dunno Keith - 8-12L seems more like "Carahell" than Carapils/Carafoam/Dextrin which are 2-3L.

if that's the closest thing you can get, Phil, go with it, but its likely to contribute a bit of caramel sweetness

Yeah, you're right. I read that before my first cup of coffee today, missed the 8-12L.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: skyler on September 08, 2011, 03:14:42 pm
I believe Munton's Dextrin Malt is 8-12 L. I think European CaraPils is just a tad darker than the US variety.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: Hokerer on September 08, 2011, 03:36:42 pm
A local microbrewer uses wheat for head retention. I never tried it so I can't say how it compares to Cara-Pils. Just a thought anyway...  Cheers!!!

+1.  Lots of folks use plain ole wheat malt for head retention instead of carapils.

The other thing you might want to think about is just why are you using anything special for head retention.  If all your processes are in line then your head retention and stability should be just fine without needing to add anything.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: blatz on September 08, 2011, 03:41:02 pm
FWIW - Carapils & Carafoam do contribute some flavor to the beer - the main difference between my pils and dortmunder grists are 8% Carafoam - and I can definitely taste a difference in the malt character and mouthfeel.

I know the OP was looking to use it as head retention aid, but just wanted to clarify that it isn't entirely flavourless.

Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: denny on September 08, 2011, 03:43:49 pm
If you make the beer properly, you don't need either wheat or carapils for head retention.  Look at Duvel....most of us can only dream of getting foam like that, and it's only pils malt and sugar.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: dmtaylor on September 08, 2011, 04:45:57 pm
Carapils needs to die.  I just gave all of mine away.  I shall never use it again because it is worthless compared to every other malt choice on the market.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: majorvices on September 08, 2011, 04:52:41 pm
Have to say I kinda agree with Dave. I have not used it in years (I think the last time I used it was 7 years ago in a Pliny the Elder Clone, where I felt it was kind of a pointless addition even back then). I have no plans to ever use it in anything.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: phillamb168 on September 08, 2011, 05:35:41 pm
Ah, re my reason for using it, it's in the recipe! Specifically Bell's THA clone. So, I don't really care too much about head retention, I haven't had much of a problem in that area (that's what she said?) but I'm not sure why it's in their recipe to begin with.  Sounds like there's no reason to use it then? I don't mind ditching it.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: denny on September 08, 2011, 05:58:17 pm
Brew a test batch without it and see what you think.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: blatz on September 08, 2011, 06:13:18 pm
Ah, re my reason for using it, it's in the recipe! Specifically Bell's THA clone. So, I don't really care too much about head retention, I haven't had much of a problem in that area (that's what she said?) but I'm not sure why it's in their recipe to begin with.  Sounds like there's no reason to use it then? I don't mind ditching it.

who's recipe?  Sean Terrill's recipe is pretty close and he doesn't use Carapils.  IIRC, nor does Bell's in THA for that matter.  Probably won't be missed.

for all the naysayers to Carapils, there are a lot of pros (Sierra Nevada comes to mind) that use it, so I doubt your recommendation that it die will be heeded since the maltsters aren't really reliant on the 0.0000000001% of their production that we buy :D ;D
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: denny on September 08, 2011, 09:08:12 pm
I th8ink carapils has its place.  But I also think adding it solely for foam isn't its place.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: kgs on September 10, 2011, 02:52:08 pm
In experimenting with Beersmith 2.0 for Mac, when a recipe is converted from all-grain to extract, Carafoam is added in. I took it out (since I don't have any on hand anyway) but thought that was interesting--an assumption that extract brews would need Carafoam.

Then I took a copy of the extract recipe, added 8 oz of Carafoam (it's a 3.5-gal recipe), and converted the recipe to all-grain, and the Carafoam was eliminated (still there, but at 0.0 ounces).

Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: majorvices on September 10, 2011, 03:48:42 pm
The thing about CaraPils in extract is that you can't control the mash in extract, so adding it in will give you more mouthfeel. The reason I feel carapils isn't really necessary is because you can mash higher with all grain and pretty much give you the same effect as if you mashed lower and added carapils.

That said, I do agree that carapils does give some flavor enhancement, so I take it back that it is completely worthless. I just don't ever really have a need for it in my brewery.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: kgs on September 10, 2011, 06:04:18 pm
The thing about CaraPils in extract is that you can't control the mash in extract, so adding it in will give you more mouthfeel. The reason I feel carapils isn't really necessary is because you can mash higher with all grain and pretty much give you the same effect as if you mashed lower and added carapils.

That said, I do agree that carapils does give some flavor enhancement, so I take it back that it is completely worthless. I just don't ever really have a need for it in my brewery.

All points here make sense (that it might be useful for extract brewing but isn't useful for you personally). I am experimenting with extract brewing and plan to do the same batch successively (a recipe I have done in AG several times with great results). Maybe I'll do it without Carapils to start with and then try it next time with Carapils. Other variations include with and without a mini-mash.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: dmtaylor on November 28, 2016, 04:37:53 pm
Heh heh.......

http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/28/dextrine-malt-pt-1-the-impact-of-carapils-on-various-beer-characteristics-exbeeriment-results/
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: Philbrew on November 28, 2016, 07:26:41 pm
I wonder if extract manufacturers add an anti-foam agent to speed up their process.  Back when I was brewing extract beers, I used to add lots of steeped carapils to enhance head retention (without much success).  When I switched to all-grain, I could eat the beer head with a spoon.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: denny on November 28, 2016, 08:38:08 pm
I wonder if extract manufacturers add an anti-foam agent to speed up their process.  Back when I was brewing extract beers, I used to add lots of steeped carapils to enhance head retention (without much success).  When I switched to all-grain, I could eat the beer head with a spoon.

I've been looking into the production of extract for our next book and nothing I've found would lead me to believe that they do.  I think it has more to do with the fact that extract has a lower protein level due to the processing.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: denny on November 28, 2016, 08:38:59 pm
Keep in mind that it appears fermentation may have more to do with foam than ingredients....http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: The Beerery on November 28, 2016, 09:19:31 pm
Keep in mind that it appears fermentation may have more to do with foam than ingredients....http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques

Fermentation and mashing(step) for sure. I find pale ale malt to have more positive foam properties as well.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: denny on November 28, 2016, 09:30:36 pm
Fermentation and mashing(step) for sure. I find pale ale malt to have more positive foam properties as well.

All pale ale malt?  Is it at all maltster dependent?
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: The Beerery on November 28, 2016, 09:31:57 pm
Fermentation and mashing(step) for sure. I find pale ale malt to have more positive foam properties as well.

All pale ale malt?  Is it at all maltster dependent?
In the 2 that I used it has been the same, Rahr and Weyermann.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 28, 2016, 10:55:21 pm
After using Barke Vienna and Barke Munich in my Marzen recently, I can vouch for them being crazy foam positive, noticeably more so than standard Vienna and Munich.
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: denny on November 29, 2016, 05:23:21 pm
After using Barke Vienna and Barke Munich in my Marzen recently, I can vouch for them being crazy foam positive, noticeably more so than standard Vienna and Munich.

Likely due to higher protein levels.  Have you looked at an analysis for them?
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 29, 2016, 05:26:52 pm
After using Barke Vienna and Barke Munich in my Marzen recently, I can vouch for them being crazy foam positive, noticeably more so than standard Vienna and Munich.

Likely due to higher protein levels.  Have you looked at an analysis for them?

No, I haven't, Denny. I don't doubt proteinlevels are higher. I wanted to try each first before I sprung for the bag price. Ready to spring now, though!
 
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: The Beerery on November 29, 2016, 06:36:43 pm
After using Barke Vienna and Barke Munich in my Marzen recently, I can vouch for them being crazy foam positive, noticeably more so than standard Vienna and Munich.

Likely due to higher protein levels.  Have you looked at an analysis for them?
My last lot.

http://weyermann.de/pdf_analyses/R205-001360-01.pdf
Title: Re: CaraPils alternatives (two?)
Post by: kgs on December 11, 2016, 03:46:13 pm
Heh heh.......

http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/28/dextrine-malt-pt-1-the-impact-of-carapils-on-various-beer-characteristics-exbeeriment-results/

Too funny! I can't remember what happened with my planned experiment, but I think it fell to the conclusion that I'd rather be brewing all-grain.