Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: ndcube on January 09, 2010, 06:25:53 pm

Title: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: ndcube on January 09, 2010, 06:25:53 pm
Do you do a protein rest for a Kolsch?
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: denny on January 09, 2010, 06:50:06 pm
It depends on the malt, not the recipe, AFAIAC.  What malt are you using?
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: ndcube on January 09, 2010, 06:57:39 pm
I knew someone would ask that.  Not sure why I didn't mention it.

7% Best Wheat
93% Best Pilsen

Never got my analysis on them.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: Mile Hi Brewing Supplies on January 09, 2010, 08:27:42 pm
I believe Pilsner malts are generally at least moderately modified and, therefore, much of the larger proteins have already been broken down during malting.  The addition of 7% wheat is probably not enough to require one either.  If it were me, I would not perform a protein rest but some might favor a short (15-30 minute) rest at 133ish.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: denny on January 09, 2010, 08:31:39 pm
I haven't found a p rest necessary with Best pils malt.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: bluesman on January 09, 2010, 08:36:21 pm
Nope. Not necessary with the recipe you suggested.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: Beertracker on January 09, 2010, 08:45:16 pm
I say yes, just because it produces a clearer (esp. using wheat), cleaner beer with more flavor stability. But then again, I'm old school & like to make my brew days longer.  :D
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: denny on January 09, 2010, 08:49:52 pm
If I had seen evidence of that in my own brewing, Jeff, I might do it, too.  But I swear that every time I try a p rest, it makes no difference in my beers.  Maybe I'm doing something wrong somewhere else?
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: ndcube on January 10, 2010, 01:40:41 am
Thanks guys.  I'm gonna skip it.  I may have tried it but I already have to shovel about 10 inches of snow off my deck in the morning before I start.  Maybe next time for comparison.

The one time I did do a p rest I noticed I could dough in with no dough balls.  That might be an advangtage for me.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: brewhawk on January 10, 2010, 01:50:58 am
I have found with my Kolshes, if you use wheat, you need a protein rest.  If you don't use wheat, it is not necessary.  Wheat has a boat-load of protein in it.  Last one I brewed had 10% wheat in the malt bill and I forgot to use a protein rest and it is as cloudy as a hefe.

Brewhawk.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: majorvices on January 10, 2010, 03:42:58 pm
I say yes, just because it produces a clearer (esp. using wheat), cleaner beer with more flavor stability. But then again, I'm old school & like to make my brew days longer.  :D

Protein rest won't really make for a clearer beer with todays malts. Here's a picture of my kolsch - no p-rest - going to be hard pressed to get clearer than this:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2245/2403803744_9e862a1f22.jpg)

BTW: I a little over 10% wheat in the recipe.  ;)
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: ndcube on January 11, 2010, 01:34:26 pm
I brewed it yesterday.  Mashed at 152F (150F after an hour, 0deg out). The wort was clear going into the fermentor (not sure if that means much.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: ndcube on January 11, 2010, 01:47:20 pm
That is a fine looking brew major.

I did 8 gal.  I'll lager 5 and just bottle 3 straight away to compare.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: majorvices on January 11, 2010, 08:44:55 pm
I brewed it yesterday.  Mashed at 152F (150F after an hour, 0deg out). The wort was clear going into the fermentor (not sure if that means much.

Probably means you nailed you pH and had a good hot break which will most likely give you a very clear bveer. One thing I think I should mention though, kolsch yeasts are notoriously hard to drop and are very low flocculators, kind of a "dusty" strain. The White Labs strain clears a lot faster than the Wyeast strain - however often times both are fairly hazy, which is why the style is traditionally filtered in Germany. I use gelatin and a secondary bright tank to get my kolsch clear.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: ndcube on January 11, 2010, 08:50:20 pm
I used whirlfloc too.

Do you add the gelatin before or after it reaches lager temp?
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: majorvices on January 11, 2010, 09:33:28 pm
I'm not sure it matters, I usually just add it to the top of the beer after kegging, then drop into the lagering freezer.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: Kaiser on January 11, 2010, 09:49:18 pm
Some brewers argue that you should develop the haze before you add the fining agent. The yeast haze is already there but chill haze will develop at colder temps. But I don't know how much less effective it would be if the gelatin is added when the beer is still "warm". It may still be able to remove haze precursors even if the haze has not formed yet. 

Kai
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: Travis on January 11, 2010, 10:06:45 pm
I don't do a protein rest, but do lager my Kolsch for 6-8 weeks at 32Fto get the yeast (Wyeast) to drop out.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: majorvices on January 11, 2010, 10:09:28 pm
I don't do a protein rest, but do lager my Kolsch for 6-8 weeks at 32Fto get the yeast (Wyeast) to drop out.

6-8 weeks is way too long. 2-3 weeks is plenty of time. These beers are best when fresh. My kegs are beat by 8 weeks.  ;)
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: pjj2ba on January 12, 2010, 02:31:38 am
I do a protein rest for my Kolsch, Alt, and all of my lagers (all have a fair bit of pilsner malt).  I find I get a bit more body than if I don't, which is my main reason for doing it.  Sometime this winter I'll do back to back German lager brews (exact same ingredient list) with and without a p-rest to really help me decide.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: majorvices on January 12, 2010, 10:56:11 am
I do a protein rest for my Kolsch, Alt, and all of my lagers (all have a fair bit of pilsner malt).  I find I get a bit more body than if I don't, which is my main reason for doing it.  Sometime this winter I'll do back to back German lager brews (exact same ingredient list) with and without a p-rest to really help me decide.



Funny, because, at least theoretically, you should be getting less body and less head retention since you are breaking down the protein even further. Really, with todays 2 row pils malts p-rests could be doing more harm than good.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: k4df4l on January 12, 2010, 12:05:37 pm
I brewed it yesterday.  Mashed at 152F (150F after an hour, 0deg out). The wort was clear going into the fermentor (not sure if that means much.

Probably means you nailed you pH and had a good hot break which will most likely give you a very clear bveer. One thing I think I should mention though, kolsch yeasts are notoriously hard to drop and are very low flocculators, kind of a "dusty" strain. The White Labs strain clears a lot faster than the Wyeast strain - however often times both are fairly hazy, which is why the style is traditionally filtered in Germany. I use gelatin and a secondary bright tank to get my kolsch clear.

I'll second that observation on the White Labs vs Wyeast strains.  WLP029 has been significantly more flocculant in my brewing than 2565.  After a couple weeks of lagering though, both are plenty clear for me.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: karlh on January 12, 2010, 12:40:02 pm
I have never used a protein rest for kolsch.  My recipie uses  5% wheat malt.  I have never had clarity issues.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: Beertracker on January 12, 2010, 05:24:40 pm
Fix says, "YES"... so that's good enough for me.  ;)
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: majorvices on January 12, 2010, 05:31:42 pm
Hate to say this, but his book is based on slightly outdated brewing principals.... most of the current information I have read (including that coming from professional brewers) says no p-rest needed, and that a p-rest on highly modified malts can cause more harm than good. Even Noonan suggests on in his book .... but again, those were written a while ago and have not been updated.

In the end, try it yourself. I started out using it. Read it wasn't necessary (I believe actually it was Denny who pointed it out) tried skipping it and haven't gone back since. YMMV .... but I doubt it.  ;)
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: denny on January 12, 2010, 05:40:06 pm
Fix says, "YES"... so that's good enough for me.  ;)

Fix would also have you make an Ofest with pale malt and large amounts of crystal, too.  The fact is that things have changed a lot since his great books were written.  It's too bad we don't have his insights today with all the great new ingredients and techniques that are around.
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: Beertracker on January 12, 2010, 05:49:52 pm
... It's too bad we don't have his insights today with all the great new ingredients and techniques that are around.

You said a mouthful there! It certainly would've been interesting to see how he'd of weighed in on 'modernization vs. tradition' because that's really what we're talking about here.  ;)     

Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: majorvices on January 12, 2010, 06:03:02 pm
It was only "tradition" because at one point in time it was needed. With today's 2-row pilsner malts it is not needed any longer.  ;)
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: Beertracker on January 12, 2010, 08:12:41 pm
It was only "tradition" because at one point in time it was needed. With today's 2-row pilsner malts it is not needed any longer.  ;)

I'll agree to disagree with you on that point major, as my reason for still utilizing a step is just as valid as yours for not. I'm just sayin'!  :)
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: majorvices on January 12, 2010, 08:25:52 pm
What? You mean you don't want to debate this for another 6 pages?  ???

 ;D
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: Bret on January 13, 2010, 04:18:25 am
c'mon guys I need an answer here.  Making a Kolsch with Organic Gambrinus pilsner malt. Wondering if I need a rest or not.  Anybody ever use this malt?
Title: Re: Kolsch - Protein Rest or Not ?
Post by: majorvices on January 13, 2010, 01:11:08 pm
I've never used the malt before but I highly doubt it needs a protein rest. Very, very few malts available to homebrewers need protein rests. Perhaps if it is 6 row it would need it - but if it is 2 row you should be fine with a single infusion.