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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: bernman on September 10, 2011, 12:53:02 AM

Title: BJCP category
Post by: bernman on September 10, 2011, 12:53:02 AM
What BJCP category would I enter a Coconut Porter in?

Thanks

Bernie
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: jeffy on September 10, 2011, 01:12:21 AM
Category 21 Spice/Herb/Vegetable Beer has descriptions of nut-based beers, so I think it would belong in that category.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: bluesman on September 10, 2011, 02:23:48 AM
Coconut is considered to be a fruit and a seed, so it could also fall under the fruit category. This is a fruit unlike others, in that we might use the milk for fermentation purposes but I'm not an expert on coconuts. I would go with Cat 20 or 21.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: woadwarrior on September 10, 2011, 12:47:26 PM
As a guess, I'd say it would depend on what part of the coconut was used.
That being said, coconut? Really? Coconut? ???
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: bernman on September 10, 2011, 01:22:02 PM
Yes, coconut. I toasted some flaked coconut until golden brown and then put it in a mesh bag and added to secondary for about a week. I am going to be sending it out on Monday for a comp and was not sure what category to enter it in.

Thanks
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: bonjour on September 10, 2011, 01:52:55 PM
21A
from the comments
Quote
This category may also be used for chile pepper, coffee-, chocolate-, or nut-based beers (including combinations of these items).
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: johnf on September 10, 2011, 03:54:05 PM
Coconuts aren't neither botanical nuts nor like what people think of when they say nut (such as almonds or peanuts which are not botanical nuts either), so I think the guidelines could be clearer on coconut, since the question comes up so much.

The way I think about it is that in category 20 people expect things that are commonly considered fruits and I don't think coconut is in that category so it should go in 21. I would make the same argument for tomatoes.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: denny on September 10, 2011, 04:44:01 PM
About 12-13 years ago, a toasted coconut porter took the NHC.  I'll see if I can find out what category it was.  Maybe Gordon would know.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: kgs on September 11, 2011, 12:02:17 AM
About 12-13 years ago, a toasted coconut porter took the NHC.  I'll see if I can find out what category it was.  Maybe Gordon would know.

Here's the first citation from the Zymurgy archive:

Toasted Coconut Porter   Fujiura    Homebrew Recipes    21   4   November/December 1998

It shows up again 5 years later:

Toasted Coconut Porter   Fujiura    Homebrew Recipes   26   6   November/December 2003

I don't see how to pull that recipe from the archive (is it full-text and I'm missing the link?), though I see recipes on the web that claim to be this one. My library's databases don't include Zymurgy or I'd have tried that way.

Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: johnf on September 11, 2011, 01:03:36 AM
About 12-13 years ago, a toasted coconut porter took the NHC.  I'll see if I can find out what category it was.  Maybe Gordon would know.

I judged Fujiura-san's mild (twice including BOS, where it won) this summer in Japan. Really good damn mild. I looked online and the same recipe shows up everywhere including on the green board where someone pasted verbatim text from an email, so it seems legit. He is legendary in Japan for this beer. Apparently he got a bit of a hand slap when Zymurgy published that he won (homebrewing is not legal in Japan if the alcohol is greater than 1%, it is pretty well decriminalized though).

Back to the point. I would argue under the 1998 guidelines that coconut beers should go in fruit beer. It would be interesting to know where this was entered.

Under the 2008 guidelines, the SHV category specifically says nut based beers go there. I think that is vague, but I know Gordon believes (because he said so on the BJCP board) that should include coconut so I believe that was the intent. The coconut question comes up A LOT and I think it would be a good idea to clarify in the next revision.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: bernman on September 11, 2011, 11:42:12 PM
I will enter it in category 21 A.

Thanks
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: gordonstrong on September 15, 2011, 02:24:20 PM
21a is the right place.  I'll clarify in the next set of guidelines.  The intent of fruit vs SHV beers is to keep to the culinary interpretation of the ingredient not the botanical one.  If (God help us) you made a tomato beer, it would be entered in 21a not 20.  Coconut tastes more like macadamia nuts and cashews than it does raspberries and cherries.  So it goes in 21.  I thought 'nut' was good enough, but apparently not.  That was the intent, though.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: Hokerer on September 15, 2011, 02:48:39 PM
If (God help us) you made a tomato beer, it would be entered in 21a not 20.

Ever heard of a "Redeye" ?  Technically a blend but still tomato
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: morticaixavier on September 15, 2011, 02:51:32 PM
If (God help us) you made a tomato beer, it would be entered in 21a not 20.

Ever heard of a "Redeye" ?  Technically a blend but still tomato

But where would budweiser with clamato fit in the BJCP categories?
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: gordonstrong on September 15, 2011, 03:05:48 PM
Cat 0.  Dump Bucket.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: tschmidlin on September 15, 2011, 03:50:39 PM
There is a huge difference between a beer blended with tomato juice, and a beer fermented with tomatoes.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: bluesman on September 15, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
There is a huge difference between a beer blended with tomato juice, and a beer fermented with tomatoes.

I think so Tom, eventhough I have never tried making one. I've had beer with clamato which is meh...but I know when tomatoes begin to breakdown and ferment on the counter they lend a nasty, or very unappealing aroma. I can only imagine that nasty aroma and similar flavor in a Tomato beer.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: Hokerer on September 15, 2011, 05:03:37 PM
There is a huge difference between a beer blended with tomato juice, and a beer fermented with tomatoes.

Yeah, I only mentioned the Redeye in jest.  I've been in places that offered them but, strangely enough, was never tempted to try one.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: tschmidlin on September 15, 2011, 05:42:29 PM
I really like Bloody Mary's, so I might like a beer mixed with tomato juice.  But the tomato weizen I had was truly awful.  It is the worst beer I've ever had that had nothing technically wrong with it.
Title: Re: BJCP category
Post by: MDixon on September 16, 2011, 11:46:11 AM
I hope when we do revise the guidelines we can tweak the fruit and vegetable beers. Maybe even subcategories within to help the judges at the table. Here's some old discussion on the BJCP Forum which began in 2008
http://www.bjcp.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=434