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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: bluesman on September 14, 2011, 06:43:03 PM

Title: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on September 14, 2011, 06:43:03 PM
I am planning to brew one in the next week or two and wanted to hear your reviews/opinions on mash schedules. I'm undecided on a mash schedule, single infusion, step mash or decoction mash. I've seen quite a few mash variations and would like to know how your particular mash schedule has affected the flavor and mouthfeel of your weizen recipe.

Fermentation temp and results?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: euge on September 14, 2011, 07:36:41 PM
I do a single decoction and add at the end of the mash. Don't care if it raises the temp or not so I guess it's a single infusion as well. I've had better results with decoctions as opposed to not doing one.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Jimmy K on September 14, 2011, 08:05:07 PM
I know Greg swears that a hef just can't be done right without decoction mashing.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: tomsawyer on September 14, 2011, 08:20:38 PM
I do a step mash that includes 60min at 145F and 15min at 158F.  The first step gives me a fermentable wort, the second gives me enough body.  I haven't used a ferulic acid rest and still seem to get plenty of clove.

How come this got moved from the AG section anyway?
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Hokerer on September 14, 2011, 08:25:18 PM
How come this got moved from the AG section anyway?

Not just there.  When I just got on a looked at "Unread" it was listed a bunch of times.  Looked like Ron and Fred were playing catch or something.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Hokerer on September 14, 2011, 08:30:11 PM
Oh yeah.  For the mash schedule on the one I'm doing this weekend, I'm gonna play with the "Markus Hermann Weihenstephan reverse step mash".  Something (haven't done the math yet) along the line of...

Mash half at 145-149F to completion

Add remaining mash to cool to 95F (86-104F)

Pull 1/3 into small pot, pressure cook pseudo-decoct

Add to cool 2/3 to raise temp

Add boiling water to raise to 152F

Mash to completion.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: jeffy on September 14, 2011, 09:18:09 PM
Oh yeah.  For the mash schedule on the one I'm doing this weekend, I'm gonna play with the "Markus Hermann Weihenstephan reverse step mash".  Something (haven't done the math yet) along the line of...

Mash half at 145-149F to completion

Add remaining mash to cool to 95F (86-104F)

Pull 1/3 into small pot, pressure cook pseudo-decoct

Add to cool 2/3 to raise temp

Add boiling water to raise to 152F

Mash to completion.

Never heard of that one before.  Does the partially mashed grist help with the ferulic acid rest or what?
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on September 14, 2011, 09:23:48 PM
How come this got moved from the AG section anyway?

Not just there.  When I just got on a looked at "Unread" it was listed a bunch of times.  Looked like Ron and Fred were playing catch or something.

Fred and I were playing tic tac toe. He won.  ;D
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on September 14, 2011, 09:26:12 PM
Oh yeah.  For the mash schedule on the one I'm doing this weekend, I'm gonna play with the "Markus Hermann Weihenstephan reverse step mash".  Something (haven't done the math yet) along the line of...

Mash half at 145-149F to completion

Add remaining mash to cool to 95F (86-104F)

Pull 1/3 into small pot, pressure cook pseudo-decoct

Add to cool 2/3 to raise temp

Add boiling water to raise to 152F

Mash to completion.


That sounds interesting. Is this their current technique?
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Hokerer on September 14, 2011, 11:06:10 PM
That sounds interesting. Is this their current technique?

I really have no idea.  I read about it at (among several other places) Kai's wiki...

Maltase is an enzyme that has its optimum between 30 and 40 C and can split a single glucose molecule from the non-reducing end of a glucose chain (similar to β-amylase which splits a glucose pair from the non-reducing end of glucose chains). It's affinity to the substrate increases as the degree of polymerization decreases and it is highest for maltose (degree of polymerization is 2) [Kessler, 2006]. But it is generally of little interest in mashing as at its working temperature there is not much maltose present in the wort (which assumes that the mash is doughed in at or below 40 C). If activity of this enzyme is desired to increase the glucose level of the wort the mash needs to be held for saccharification at 63-65C and after having been cooled to 40 C fresh malt is added which also adds new maltase enzymes. After a rest of 30-45 min the mash is heated again to convert the starch that has been added with the new malt. This mash schedule has been introduced by Markus Hermann from the Weihenstephan brewing school to produce high glucose worts for ester rich Weissbiers [Hermann, 2005]

...but I can't find that particular reference he footnotes.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Starch_Conversion (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Starch_Conversion)
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Hokerer on September 14, 2011, 11:10:40 PM
Never heard of that one before.  Does the partially mashed grist help with the ferulic acid rest or what?

As I understand it, 86-104F is the temp range at which the maltase enzyme is active (denatured above 115F).  Maltase breaks down maltose into glucose.  Maltose gets produced in the mash at sacc temps (145-155F or so) so when maltase is active there's no maltose and by the time there is maltose, the maltase has been denatured.  This mash schedule is a way around that.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: jeffy on September 14, 2011, 11:46:56 PM
Never heard of that one before.  Does the partially mashed grist help with the ferulic acid rest or what?

As I understand it, 86-104F is the temp range at which the maltase enzyme is active (denatured above 115F).  Maltase breaks down maltose into glucose.  Maltose gets produced in the mash at sacc temps (145-155F or so) so when maltase is active there's no maltose and by the time there is maltose, the maltase has been denatured.  This mash schedule is a way around that.
So it is a method of making glucose.  How does this affect the flavor and fermentability?
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Hokerer on September 15, 2011, 12:09:40 AM
So it is a method of making glucose.  How does this affect the flavor and fermentability?

Well, according to the "Brewing a Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma" by Michael Eder in the May/June 2010 Zymurgy, "The greater the difference between the glucose and maltose in the wort, the more ethyl- and isoamyl acetate will be produced by the yeast".  Basically, it's accentuating the banana in favor of the clove.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Pawtucket Patriot on September 15, 2011, 12:17:00 AM
I brewed two hefeweizens this past summer.  For both, I employed a hockhurz double decoction mash with the traditional rests at 145 and 160.  They were outstanding hefeweizens, but, to be honest, I'm not sure if that was a result of the mash schedule.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on September 15, 2011, 01:10:49 AM
I brewed two hefeweizens this past summer.  For both, I employed a hockhurz double decoction mash with the traditional rests at 145 and 160.  They were outstanding hefeweizens, but, to be honest, I'm not sure if that was a result of the mash schedule.

I am considering the Hockhurz DDM. I would really like to try this against a single infusion mashed wort in side by side blind tasting just for curiosity's sake.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on September 15, 2011, 01:26:21 AM
So it is a method of making glucose.  How does this affect the flavor and fermentability?

Well, according to the "Brewing a Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma" by Michael Eder in the May/June 2010 Zymurgy, "The greater the difference between the glucose and maltose in the wort, the more ethyl- and isoamyl acetate will be produced by the yeast".  Basically, it's accentuating the banana in favor of the clove.

I want to get the 4-vinyl guiacol or clove like phenol. An acid rest at 111F helps to produce ferulic acid which helps promote 4VG upon fermentation.

F. Nitzsche

Investigations into Optimizing Wheat Beer QualityBrauwelt, Vol32, 8 Aug 1991
•The taste and smell threshold is 0.8 mg of 4VG/L
•4VG levels over 2 mg/L bring a strong/severe character to the beer
•The fact that the levels of ferulicacid can fluctuate widely in malt can effect the levels of 4VG in beer
•As a rule, wheat malt has less ferulicthan barley malt
•The highest levels of 4VG occur after the final limit of attenuation is reached
•More 4VG is present when the final limit of attenuation is reached in 4 days as opposed to 2 days
•The levels of 4VG don’t decrease significantly with the age of the beer, although other staling by-products may cover up the taste of 4VG
Here's an intersting paper on German Wheat Beers.

Pitching rate and ferm temp are critical for producing that classic German profile in this beer:

Dr. Narziss
16thTechnological Seminar at Weihenstephan1983
Fermentation
•Pitching Rate 12-18 million cells/ml
•Starting Temperature 12-15 C (lower starting temps more common when starting tank is used to settle cold truband then transfer to fermenterbefore start of fermentation where free rise occurs)
•Max temperature 18-22 C
•Main fermentation is 2-4 days
•Maximum Cell count is 60-80 millionBottle Conditioning
•Lager yeast is less likely to autolyzeand settles better
•If top-fermenting yeast is used, shelf life should be limited to 4-6 weeksFermenterShape
•Cylindrical tanks produce only 2/3 the esters of shallow open fermenters
•Horizontal tanks perform like open fermenters

http://www.mbaa.com/Districts/MidSouth/presentations/Wheat_Beer_Yeast__Fermentation2.pdf
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Hokerer on September 15, 2011, 01:31:48 AM
Well, according to the "Brewing a Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma" by Michael Eder in the May/June 2010 Zymurgy, "The greater the difference between the glucose and maltose in the wort, the more ethyl- and isoamyl acetate will be produced by the yeast".  Basically, it's accentuating the banana in favor of the clove.
I want to get the 4-vinyl guiacol or clove like phenol. An acid rest at 111F helps to produce ferulic acid which helps promote 4VG upon fermentation.

That's where we differ.  I know it has to be there, but I don't particularly care for the clove - or at least, too much clove.  I prefer the banana to be more prominent although I'm not looking for a banana bomb either.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Pawtucket Patriot on September 15, 2011, 01:42:22 PM
On my brewing agenda (at some point) is to do the 4-VG rest with 3068. I'd like to compare it with not doing the 4-VG rest and using Hefeweizen IV (of course, the beers would be brewed identically in every other respect). 

And eventually, I would love to compare decocted and non-decocted. At first, I'd like to compare identical grain bills. Then, if I detect a difference, I would like to try to approximate the nature of the difference with specialty malts.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: James Lorden on September 16, 2011, 02:29:40 PM
Ron, Last year I took first place with a hefe at the Turkey Shoot we judged.  I made two carboys, one with WLP 300 and the other with the WLP 380.  The 300 kicked out lots of banana and the 380 had lots of clove.  I blended them together till I got a nice balance.

This year I'm thinking of pitching both yeast into the same fermentation and see if I get similar results.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: tomsawyer on September 16, 2011, 03:47:15 PM
Ron, Last year I took first place with a hefe at the Turkey Shoot we judged.  I made two carboys, one with WLP 300 and the other with the WLP 380.  The 300 kicked out lots of banana and the 380 had lots of clove.  I blended them together till I got a nice balance.

This year I'm thinking of pitching both yeast into the same fermentation and see if I get similar results.

I blended these two before, but I've found its simpler to just use 300 and a lower ferm temp to keep the level of banana at a reasonable level.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on September 16, 2011, 04:14:08 PM
Ron, Last year I took first place with a hefe at the Turkey Shoot we judged.  I made two carboys, one with WLP 300 and the other with the WLP 380.  The 300 kicked out lots of banana and the 380 had lots of clove.  I blended them together till I got a nice balance.

This year I'm thinking of pitching both yeast into the same fermentation and see if I get similar results.

Interesting idea. Let us know how it turns out. Hopefully I'll see you again at the Turkey Shoot in November.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on September 16, 2011, 04:15:38 PM
Ron, Last year I took first place with a hefe at the Turkey Shoot we judged.  I made two carboys, one with WLP 300 and the other with the WLP 380.  The 300 kicked out lots of banana and the 380 had lots of clove.  I blended them together till I got a nice balance.

This year I'm thinking of pitching both yeast into the same fermentation and see if I get similar results.

I blended these two before, but I've found its simpler to just use 300 and a lower ferm temp to keep the level of banana at a reasonable level.

I have WLP 300 and I'm planning for a pitch at 62F. I'm not certain about a starter size yet.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: nateo on September 18, 2011, 08:56:29 PM
Instead of doing a reverse mash to get a glucose-rich wort, why not just mash a little bit hotter, and add some amount of dextrose? Would you get the same increased esters that way?
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Hokerer on September 18, 2011, 09:08:46 PM
Instead of doing a reverse mash to get a glucose-rich wort, why not just mash a little bit hotter, and add some amount of dextrose? Would you get the same increased esters that way?

Yeah, but that would be cheating :) and not nearly as much fun.  Got 33 minutes left on the boil at the moment.  The reverse step mash went pretty well.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Hokerer on September 23, 2011, 12:40:04 AM
Okay, went ahead and posted the recipe, including my whack-a-doo mash schedule to the wiki...

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/KlotzFerryHefeweizen (http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/KlotzFerryHefeweizen)

...the bubbling is subsiding after a major blowoff.  We'll see how it turns out in a couple weeks.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on September 23, 2011, 01:45:07 AM
Okay, went ahead and posted the recipe, including my whack-a-doo mash schedule to the wiki...

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/KlotzFerryHefeweizen (http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/KlotzFerryHefeweizen)

...the bubbling is subsiding after a major blowoff.  We'll see how it turns out in a couple weeks.

Nice work Joe!

Did you make a starter for this recipe?

Let us know how it turned out. I'll post my recipe details on Sunday when I brew mine.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Hokerer on September 23, 2011, 02:22:29 AM

Did you make a starter for this recipe?


Yep, grew up 3068 from a slant...  10ml + 4oz + 16oz + 32oz  so ended up with about 1.5 liter total.  Chill, decant, add a little fresh wort, pitch
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on October 03, 2011, 01:28:55 AM
Brewed my Hefe last weekend. Just getting around to posting my recipe. I decided to go with a single infusion at 153F due to time constraints. It's in the primary and about finished. I'll rack it into a keg next weekend. I fermented it at 62F. The aroma from the fermentation chamber is mostly banana with some clove.
 
Weizen/Weissbier
Type: All Grain Date: 9/25/2011
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.25 gal
Boil Time: 90 min 
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5 lbs 4.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 6 48.8 %
5 lbs 4.0 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 7 48.8 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer [3.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min 12.1 IBUs
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days)
1.0 pkg Hefeweizen Ale (White Labs #WLP300)
4.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 5 2.3 %
0.40 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)
4.00 g Chalk (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
1.00 g Baking Soda (Mash 60.0 mins)
 
Beer Profile
 
Measured Original Gravity: 1.048 SG
Bitterness: 12.1 IBUs
Est Color: 3.3 SRM
 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 10 lbs 12.0 oz
Sparge Water: 1.70 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: Mash PH: 5.42
 
 

 
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: tomsawyer on October 03, 2011, 05:51:24 PM
Seems like a lot of chalk/bicarb for a light colored brew.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on October 03, 2011, 06:09:25 PM
Seems like a lot of chalk/bicarb for a light colored brew.

I use distilled water
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: jmcamerlengo on November 17, 2011, 08:34:30 PM
I like to employ a step mash of 111 for 20 minutes and 150 for 45 or until completion.

I also prefer blending the WLP300 and 380 and ferment at 62.  Personally I cant really tell any distinguishable difference between decocting to get to your 150 from 111 as opposed to just step mashing.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: blatz on November 17, 2011, 10:31:04 PM
I like to employ a step mash of 111 for 20 minutes and 150 for 45 or until completion.

+1 - I did this recently (as a change from single infusion) and was very happy with the results.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Pawtucket Patriot on November 17, 2011, 10:48:26 PM
I like to employ a step mash of 111 for 20 minutes and 150 for 45 or until completion.

+1 - I did this recently (as a change from single infusion) and was very happy with the results.

What yeast did you use?  I've thought about doing the 4-VG rest but wondered if the clove might be too overpowering when used in conjunction with hefe IV.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: blatz on November 17, 2011, 10:53:35 PM
I like to employ a step mash of 111 for 20 minutes and 150 for 45 or until completion.

+1 - I did this recently (as a change from single infusion) and was very happy with the results.

What yeast did you use?  I've thought about doing the 4-VG rest but wondered if the clove might be too overpowering when used in conjunction with hefe IV.


WL 380 which IIRC is IV?
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: tomsawyer on November 18, 2011, 01:21:12 AM
WLP380 is Hefe IV and if I didn't like clove as much I would use WLP300 instead.  You can get enough clove from a 62F ferment with WLP300.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on November 18, 2011, 04:28:39 AM
I like to employ a step mash of 111 for 20 minutes and 150 for 45 or until completion.

+1 - I did this recently (as a change from single infusion) and was very happy with the results.
Paul what happened.
You step mashed??
Way to go man.
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: blatz on November 18, 2011, 02:14:15 PM
I like to employ a step mash of 111 for 20 minutes and 150 for 45 or until completion.

+1 - I did this recently (as a change from single infusion) and was very happy with the results.
Paul what happened.
You step mashed??
Way to go man.

 ;D - its going to be much easier with my new electric brewery which also has a HERMs
Title: Re: German Hefeweizen
Post by: bluesman on November 18, 2011, 02:49:58 PM
I didn't get very much clove with a single infusion. Think I'll try a step mash with a 4 VG rest on the next recipe.