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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: dzlater on September 16, 2011, 03:01:22 pm

Title: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: dzlater on September 16, 2011, 03:01:22 pm
I usually divide my total water amount in half, and use half for the sparge and half for the mash. As long as the quarts per lb stay between 1 and 2.
The beer I am planning I would need 4 gallons mash 4 gallons sparge.
With the grain bill I can only fit about 3 gallons of sparge water, and can't up my mash water by a gallon because that won't fit.
Instead of doing 2 sparges @ 2 gallons each, can I add the 3 gallons that will fit and then slowly add the remaining gallon as the mash tun drains? If I do this should I slow down on how quickly I run off the sparge water.
 I am planning on brewing Fred's late hopped amarillo pale ale   http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/AmarilloPaleAleBeerDuJour
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: dano14041 on September 16, 2011, 03:06:42 pm
That seems feasible to me, as long as the addition doesn't disturb the grain bed.
Add it in slowly like you would when you vorloft, or drain a gallon or so of wort stop the run off, add the last gallon, mix in, vorloft, and then finish the runoff.

Good luck!
Dano
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: Hokerer on September 16, 2011, 03:15:06 pm
Better yet, just batch sparge twice.  Mash, vorlauf, drain, add half the sparge water, stir, vorlauf, drain, add remain sparge water, stir, vorlauf, drain.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: theDarkSide on September 16, 2011, 03:19:56 pm
If your numbers after the 3 gallon sparge are higher than you expected, you could just add the 1 gallon of water directly to the brew kettle.  Otherwise I would sparge twice, since it shouldn't take too long with batch sparging.  Just vorlauf after each addition and stir ( some let it sit for 10 minutes or so, others don't )
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: denny on September 16, 2011, 03:40:35 pm
Instead of doing 2 sparges @ 2 gallons each, can I add the 3 gallons that will fit and then slowly add the remaining gallon as the mash tun drains? If I do this should I slow down on how quickly I run off the sparge water.

You certainly can do what you propose.  I've done it many times when my sparge water wouldn't fit.  I don't s;low down the runoff at all, just add more water gently as the level in the cooler allows.  I haven't seen any effect on my efficiency, either higher or lower.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: bluesman on September 16, 2011, 04:30:05 pm
The only concern is your mash pH during runoff. In an effort to avoid tannin extraction you will need to monitor and maintain your mash pH < 6.0 during runoff. You can always make a small addition of phosphoric acid if need be.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: denny on September 16, 2011, 04:31:54 pm
The only concern is your mash pH during runoff. In an effort to avoid tannin extraction you will need to monitor and maintain your mash pH < 6.0 during runoff. You can always make a small addition of phosphoric acid if need be.

Ron, I haven't found that to be a problem if you're only adding a gal. or 2 of water.  it would be more of a concern if you did multiple discrete sparges as several here have suggested.  But you're correct that you should be aware of the possibility and make sure you're OK.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: bluesman on September 16, 2011, 04:43:03 pm
The only concern is your mash pH during runoff. In an effort to avoid tannin extraction you will need to monitor and maintain your mash pH < 6.0 during runoff. You can always make a small addition of phosphoric acid if need be.

Ron, I haven't found that to be a problem if you're only adding a gal. or 2 of water.  it would be more of a concern if you did multiple discrete sparges as several here have suggested.  But you're correct that you should be aware of the possibility and make sure you're OK.

Agreed. Typically smaller additions won't drive the alkalinity up too much. Depends on your water profile and grist bill.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: dzlater on September 17, 2011, 12:52:55 pm
The only concern is your mash pH during runoff. In an effort to avoid tannin extraction you will need to monitor and maintain your mash pH < 6.0 during runoff. You can always make a small addition of phosphoric acid if need be.

I thought pH wasn't an issue with batch spargng? I thought the tannin thing was from over spaging?
And if I had money for a pH meter I'd use it buy a bigger mash tun.  ;D
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: malzig on September 17, 2011, 02:16:05 pm
The more batch sparges you do, the closer you get to fly sparging.  The more you dilute out the buffer you set up in the mash, the more the pH has the potential to drift.  It still shouldn't be much of an issue with a couple sparges, though, if your water has relatively low alkalinity, because the final runnings will still be close to 4 Plato (according to Kai's Batch Sparge Calculator.)

I'd just add it to the top of the sparge water, once you have room, though.  It's simpler and it shouldn't make much difference in your efficiency.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: denny on September 17, 2011, 03:28:21 pm
I thought pH wasn't an issue with batch spargng? I thought the tannin thing was from over spaging?
And if I had money for a pH meter I'd use it buy a bigger mash tun.  ;D

It's more difficult to oversparge and increase pH with batch sparging, but it can be done.  In a "normal" batch sparge situation, it shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: tomsawyer on September 18, 2011, 02:54:59 pm
The saving aspect about a double sparge is that usually I only do it when there is a big grain bill that prevents me from getting all my water in the MLT with the mash and a single sparge.  So right there I have more residual bound liquid in the grain, meaning a greater sugar content in each sparge.  That said,  hedge my bets slightly by not draining every possible drop of free liquid from the first sparge, leaving a little more sugar for the second sparge.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: Kit B on September 20, 2011, 06:40:33 pm
Double Batch Sparge.
I will normally mash with about 3 to 4 gallons & sparge with 2 equal batches of about 2 1/2 to 3 gallons each.
(Depending on my grain bill, of course.)
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: denny on September 20, 2011, 06:58:22 pm
Double Batch Sparge.
I will normally mash with about 3 to 4 gallons & sparge with 2 equal batches of about 2 1/2 to 3 gallons each.
(Depending on my grain bill, of course.)

Why?
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: Kit B on September 20, 2011, 07:51:00 pm
Because, I have a small mash tun.
Because, I can.
Because, it's fun.
Because, that's how I roll.
 ;)

No giant reasons, but if he's run out of room in his tun, what's wrong with a double batch sparge?
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: denny on September 20, 2011, 07:52:54 pm
Being out of room in the tun is justification enough.  Just curious.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: Kit B on September 20, 2011, 07:56:49 pm
Being out of room in the tun is justification enough.  Just curious.

I was just playing, Denny.
I find that humorous outbursts make my day more interesting.
You never DBS?
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: denny on September 20, 2011, 07:58:31 pm
You never DBS?


Very seldom, and only on the case you mention....I'm using so much grain that I can't fit all the sparge water in in one go.  Other than that, there's no point I can see.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: Kit B on September 20, 2011, 08:08:41 pm
I don't have a good reason, but I always double batch sparge, regardless of whether there's room for a single.
I guess it's habit.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: denny on September 20, 2011, 08:14:50 pm
I don't have a good reason, but I always double batch sparge, regardless of whether there's room for a single.
I guess it's habit.

If you enjoy it, good on ya.  For me, doing what I see as needless effort drives me crazy.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: dzlater on September 20, 2011, 08:53:11 pm
So if double batch sparge do I divide up the water?
1/3 mash, 1/3 sparge, 1/3 sparge
or
1/2 mash, 1/4 sparge, 1/4 saprge
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: tomsawyer on September 20, 2011, 09:07:34 pm
Either way, although if 1/3 of the water puts you in a good mash ratio then you'll get better extraction from having two larger sparges.

Having said that, I generally use as much water as possible for my mash, and only sparge with what won't fit.  With my MLT I can do up to 3.5qt/lb so I'll only have a gallon left for sparge.  Its more like no-sparge this way, but I still get my usual 75% efficiency.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: Kit B on September 20, 2011, 09:38:29 pm
So if double batch sparge do I divide up the water?
1/3 mash, 1/3 sparge, 1/3 sparge
or
1/2 mash, 1/4 sparge, 1/4 saprge

I usually figure 1.25 to 1.5 qts per lb for mash, & then split the volume that I need to cover:
Boil-off + trub losses + grain absorption + dead space.

(I let Beersmith do the math.)
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: bluesman on September 20, 2011, 09:43:31 pm
The only concern is your mash pH during runoff. In an effort to avoid tannin extraction you will need to monitor and maintain your mash pH < 6.0 during runoff. You can always make a small addition of phosphoric acid if need be.

I thought pH wasn't an issue with batch spargng? I thought the tannin thing was from over spaging?
And if I had money for a pH meter I'd use it buy a bigger mash tun.  ;D

pH is critical to mashing and overall beer flavor. Tannin extraction occurs at a pH > 6.0. It's usually not a problem when batch sparging, but again it depends on your water profile and you grist.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: ynotbrusum on September 21, 2011, 11:59:38 pm
It's the reason I went away from the 5 gallon round and use the bigger rectangle cooler or 10 gallon round or my keg with false bottom.  I rarely run into the issue anymore and plan my bigger beers for the bigger units.   But I add as I go up to half total volume and then same with the second half when absolutely necessary.  You guys that go big all the time have these problems more frequently than me with my little brews...

 ;D
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: dzlater on October 02, 2011, 12:45:45 pm
Brewed this up yesterday.
I just gently added the extra water as I drained the mash tun.
Wound up with 80% efficiency.
No problem.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: tomsawyer on October 04, 2011, 06:19:27 pm
Brewed this up yesterday.
I just gently added the extra water as I drained the mash tun.
Wound up with 80% efficiency.
No problem.

This isn't what we agreed on.
Title: Re: Batch sparge water won't fit?
Post by: dzlater on October 04, 2011, 07:27:45 pm
Brewed this up yesterday.
I just gently added the extra water as I drained the mash tun.
Wound up with 80% efficiency.
No problem.

This isn't what we agreed on.
I never agreed to anything  ;D
Denny said it wouldn't matter, so I took his advice.