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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: pinetree on September 22, 2011, 04:40:47 PM

Title: "Defusion" mash
Post by: pinetree on September 22, 2011, 04:40:47 PM
I haven't found this discussion anywhere, so I'll toss it out:

For this weekend's Pilsener brew, I was planning my first decoction,but decided time wouldn't really allow, so I thought I'd try a multi-step infusion. Thing is I don't want to end up with a 3:1 mash ratio as indicated by the tastybrew.com calculation. (Thanks for a nifty tool Niftybrew!)

So, I'm planning a kind of combination of infusion and decoction -- or defusion.(If it's a disaster, I'll call it infuction; if the results are ambiguous, I'll call it confusion.)

Here's the scheme:

1) Start with a 1:1 dough in, then go to a 2:1 protein rest.

2) For the beta step,  I'd pull a few quarts of liquor, bring it to a boil, then re-introduce it to bring the mash to 140;

3) a similar process to bring it to both the alpha (152) and mashout (170).

Discussion about my steps aside :-) is this a common method, or a loony one?

Thanks.



Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: denny on September 22, 2011, 04:55:01 PM
If you're still planning on getting conversion (your beta and alpha steps) I'd advise you to do a typical decoction and pull grain, not liquid.  The enzymes are in the liquid and if you boil that before the mashout step, you risk denaturing them and not getting what you're going for in your steps.
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: hoser on September 22, 2011, 05:26:47 PM
Your process sounds more like a turbid mash.
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: tschmidlin on September 22, 2011, 05:38:33 PM
Why are you avoiding ending up with a 3:1 mash ratio?  It's not a problem unless it is a volume problem.
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: bluesman on September 22, 2011, 06:45:57 PM
Sounds like it will work out but as Denny said, be careful not to denature the enzymes during the process. You shoud pull a thick portion of the mash, do a brief saccharification rest and then boil for 10 min to return to the main mash.
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: dak0415 on September 22, 2011, 07:41:49 PM
Search this board for "pseudo decoction", I really need to try this!
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: pinetree on September 22, 2011, 08:21:13 PM
Why are you avoiding ending up with a 3:1 mash ratio?  It's not a problem unless it is a volume problem.

I was afraid I'd end up with too much liquor after sparging.

I'm doing 9.5 lb of grain, which comes to 28 qts of liquid before sparging. Say 1/3 of that stays in the grain (?) which puts me at 4.5 gal before sparging. Maybe three gal of sparging water is adequate, but I don't want to end up with much more than 7 gal of pre-boil wort. (I'm shooting for a 6 gal batch.)
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: pinetree on September 22, 2011, 08:22:07 PM
If you're still planning on getting conversion (your beta and alpha steps) I'd advise you to do a typical decoction and pull grain, not liquid.  The enzymes are in the liquid and if you boil that before the mashout step, you risk denaturing them and not getting what you're going for in your steps.

OK, that's serious. :-)
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: pinetree on September 22, 2011, 08:42:10 PM
I think I found a solution (no pun intended):

I'll just extract and boil what I need for the mashout, since prior to that I'm at 2:1 which is very workable for my purposes.

Thanks for all the input. (Not to cut off further comment!)

Greg

Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: tomsawyer on September 23, 2011, 04:27:52 PM
Why are you avoiding ending up with a 3:1 mash ratio?  It's not a problem unless it is a volume problem.

+1, I've been doing these and as long as you give it a little extra time you can get good conversion and a decent efficiency.  I've been doing this both as a no-sparge method and also have kept back just a gallon or so for a small sparge.  I still get about 75% which is about what I got using 2qt/lb and equal runnings.

I think this should be termed infoction, not defusion.
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: davidgzach on September 23, 2011, 05:18:19 PM
I haven't found this discussion anywhere, so I'll toss it out:

For this weekend's Pilsener brew, I was planning my first decoction,but decided time wouldn't really allow, so I thought I'd try a multi-step infusion. Thing is I don't want to end up with a 3:1 mash ratio as indicated by the tastybrew.com calculation. (Thanks for a nifty tool Niftybrew!)

So, I'm planning a kind of combination of infusion and decoction -- or defusion.(If it's a disaster, I'll call it infuction; if the results are ambiguous, I'll call it confusion.)

Here's the scheme:

1) Start with a 1:1 dough in, then go to a 2:1 protein rest.

2) For the beta step,  I'd pull a few quarts of liquor, bring it to a boil, then re-introduce it to bring the mash to 140;

3) a similar process to bring it to both the alpha (152) and mashout (170).

Discussion about my steps aside :-) is this a common method, or a loony one?

Thanks.




I did something close to this before and completely by accident as my protein rest came out too low.  I would skip the acid rest and go straight to a 1qt/lb protein rest at 131.  Infuse boiling water to 146 (140 is on low end for beta), take a sizeable solid decoction, boil for 15 minutes and return to 156-158(152 is low for alpha) and either infuse or take a second decoction to get to mash out or just skip it and start your sparge. 

Dave
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: EHall on September 23, 2011, 08:54:30 PM
This sounds like a clusterfuction  ;D way to much work...
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: davidgzach on September 23, 2011, 09:06:03 PM
This sounds like a clusterfuction  ;D way to much work...

Ahhhh, but the rewards are well worth the clusterfuction....... ;)
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: Kirk on September 26, 2011, 04:06:19 AM
the enzymes are in the liquid, not in the grain.  Pulling and boiling mash liquid destroys enzymes.
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: denny on September 26, 2011, 05:22:31 PM
the enzymes are in the liquid, not in the grain.  Pulling and boiling mash liquid destroys enzymes.

If you're still planning on getting conversion (your beta and alpha steps) I'd advise you to do a typical decoction and pull grain, not liquid.  The enzymes are in the liquid and if you boil that before the mashout step, you risk denaturing them and not getting what you're going for in your steps.
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: jeffy on September 26, 2011, 07:01:45 PM
the enzymes are in the liquid, not in the grain.  Pulling and boiling mash liquid destroys enzymes.

If you're still planning on getting conversion (your beta and alpha steps) I'd advise you to do a typical decoction and pull grain, not liquid.  The enzymes are in the liquid and if you boil that before the mashout step, you risk denaturing them and not getting what you're going for in your steps.

This is why Denny has over 6000 posts.  He quotes himself! ;)
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: Kirk on September 27, 2011, 01:07:52 AM
I take responsibility for that.  When I first looked at the OP, I thought I saw no replies.  Then when I posted, surprise, I was #14.  And, I was sober, I think.
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: tomsawyer on September 27, 2011, 11:59:37 AM
I take responsibility for that.  When I first looked at the OP, I thought I saw no replies.  Then when I posted, surprise, I was #14.  And, I was sober, I think.

Anything worth saying is worth repeating.
Title: Re: "Defusion" mash
Post by: tomsawyer on September 27, 2011, 12:00:06 PM
I take responsibility for that.  When I first looked at the OP, I thought I saw no replies.  Then when I posted, surprise, I was #14.  And, I was sober, I think.

Anything worth saying is worth repeating.

Anything worth saying is worth repeating.

On to 1000 posts!