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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: lupy on January 12, 2010, 03:15:05 AM

Title: Recipe ownership?
Post by: lupy on January 12, 2010, 03:15:05 AM
If I take someone else's a recipe and tweak it by changing the hop schedule or the yeast type or something else, could I ethically claim it as MY recipe? How much do I need to change it to claim it as mine.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: babalu87 on January 12, 2010, 03:16:10 AM
If I take someone else's a recipe and tweak it by changing the hop schedule or the yeast type or something else, could I ethically claim it as MY recipe? How much do I need to change it to claim it as mine.

Denny says its yours once you use your water.

I would add that the original brewer deserves some mention though.

Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: majorvices on January 12, 2010, 03:28:49 AM
I think, if you use someone else's recipe - even in part - you should give them credit at least in part. But, as a professional graphic designer and artist it is a well known industry inside saying that "Good artist innovate .... great artists steal!" ;)
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 12, 2010, 03:38:51 AM
If you take a recipe and brew it with your water, on your system, with your procedures, then it is a different beer.  Good form and karma to credit the inspiration.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: Beertracker on January 12, 2010, 04:12:52 AM
Agreed! +1 on the beer/homebrew karma.  :)
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: k4df4l on January 12, 2010, 12:29:22 PM
If I take someone else's a recipe and tweak it by changing the hop schedule or the yeast type or something else, could I ethically claim it as MY recipe? How much do I need to change it to claim it as mine.

Denny says its yours once you use your water.

I would add that the original brewer deserves some mention though.



Yes indeed...if you ever take part in a group brew where everyone brews the same recipe then shares the results, the difference in beers is pretty surprising.  That said if I incorporate someone else's recipe or just part of their recipe into something I brew, I've go no problem with giving credit for the inspiration/guidance.  It's the right thing to do IMHO.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: roffenburger on January 12, 2010, 01:38:40 PM
I have trouble taking credit for someone else's recipe. Of course the same recipe will taste different with a different brewer, water, system, etc, but if I didn't write the recipe, I don't take credit for it.

I brewed Denny's BVIP and it was fantastic, and most likely different than Denny's version. Its my beer and I brewed it, but not my recipe. Give credit where credit is due.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: ndcube on January 12, 2010, 01:43:38 PM
I always say that this recipe was based on or adapted from recipe X when credit is due.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: bluesman on January 12, 2010, 01:46:06 PM
I beleive credit should be given wher credit is due even if the recipe was inspired by another brewer. Unfortunately, I don't think it happens very much.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: beerocd on January 12, 2010, 03:00:19 PM
I don't think you need to set aside space on the label, or take out a public notice in the newspaper. But if you won an award or got mention in an article I think you should throw in a little shout out to the original inspiration. If you built a brewery based on a flat out borrowed recipe - maybe send the guy a case.

"Would you like to try my IPA based on Denny's recipe, except I subbed in Centennials and used a little honey malt because that's what I had at the time?" Would get kinda tedious, eh? With other brewers it would probably come out naturally in the course of discussion, but someone dropping by the house for a beer probably doesn't want to hear your geeky beer story.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: redbeerman on January 12, 2010, 03:46:29 PM
I rarely use someone elses recipe, but when I do, I do like to give credit for the inspiration.  There are so many combinations and permutations of recipes, i think it would be hard not to find similarities in a lot of recipes.  Kind of like rock and roll music, three cord limit. ;)
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: denny on January 12, 2010, 05:17:24 PM
If you take a recipe and brew it with your water, on your system, with your procedures, then it is a different beer.  Good form and karma to credit the inspiration.

Yes, it's a different beer, but that doesn't mean it's a different recipe.  I agree that if you make changes, it's then your recipe but you should credit the original source of the recipe you changed.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: makemehoppy on January 12, 2010, 05:24:02 PM
I like the based on a recipe by... or inspired by....  to indicate that you started with someone else's recipe. But we all do that to some extent. As far as  brewing competition awards, I would still mention the source. But brewing competitions are just that brewing competitions and not recipe writing competitions.

I think I would actually be prouder of myself if I could take someone's recipe and make a close representation of the beer than I would be in just brewing a great beer that I invented myself. At this point I pride myself more on the brewing process than the innovative part of brewing.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: brewboy on January 12, 2010, 05:32:48 PM
IMO, every recipe pretty much starts with ideas from one of similar style. What if you take one that who inspired by someone else.
When does the "chain of credit" stop?

I think if you merely make substitutions, then credit should be given, but if you start eliminating a hop or a grain, then it's yours.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: beerocd on January 12, 2010, 06:15:51 PM
Joe begat Brown Porter, that was passed to Paul who begat Robust Porter, and through Fred was begat Baltic Porter, on to Denny who begat VIP. I guess it's just good gamesmanship to give credit if you have the opportunity, but there should be a complexity or something special about the brew to even think you deserve credit IMO.

6 lbs wheat, 6lbs 2-row, steep at 152, 1oz fuggles and .5oz cascade and pitch Pacman yeast shouldn't be a creditable recipe - even though the beer will likely be good. It's too simple to deserve credit, I think.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: bluesman on January 12, 2010, 06:59:38 PM
I guess it's just good gamesmanship to give credit if you have the opportunity, but there should be a complexity or something special about the brew to even think you deserve credit IMO.


You mean like brewing with "no pants".  ;D
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: dean on January 12, 2010, 07:34:06 PM
I can see everybodies point on this, so if you make a batch of beer using someone elses recipe and it turns out tasting like a turd even if you follow it exactly, then its to their credit right?   :D 

I think all beers of any style are going to be quite similar in general with some exceptions but the brewer, techniques, procedures and water chemistry deserve equal if not more credit.  So I guess I agree with Denny mostly. 
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on January 12, 2010, 07:38:52 PM
I am a little bit confused with this post.
If you do not want to share recipe then do not post it.
Other recipes get name after the "creator" like Jamil Evil Twin...

But if neighbor of mine drinks my beer he does not care what recipe I used.

Lets get back to brewing. Shall we?
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 12, 2010, 07:43:03 PM
If you take a recipe and brew it with your water, on your system, with your procedures, then it is a different beer.  Good form and karma to credit the inspiration.

Yes, it's a different beer, but that doesn't mean it's a different recipe.  I agree that if you make changes, it's then your recipe but you should credit the original source of the recipe you changed.

Which is why you will be happy to know that one of the beers in my fermenters is called Denny Conn's RyeIPA.  Even used 1450 this time.   ;)
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: denny on January 12, 2010, 07:44:36 PM
FWIW, the "official" name for my Rye IPA recipe (assuming you brew my recipe without changes) is "Wry Smile IPA".
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: BrewArk on January 12, 2010, 07:50:46 PM
I use malt, hops, yeast, and water.  So if your doing that in your recipe, make sure you credit me ???
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: dean on January 12, 2010, 07:59:19 PM
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: babalu87 on January 12, 2010, 08:07:52 PM
FWIW, the "official" name for my Rye IPA recipe (assuming you brew my recipe without changes) is "Wry Smile IPA".

I brewed one inspired by yours using Centennial for bittering and Cascades for everything else

Called it Cascades in the Rye IPA
Used the cover of the book for the label, I'll post it sometime.

Damn good beer too
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: Beertracker on January 12, 2010, 08:08:36 PM
FWIW, the "official" name for my Rye IPA recipe (assuming you brew my recipe without changes) is "Wry Smile IPA".

Is that a "Wry Smile" I see upon your face?  :D
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: dean on January 12, 2010, 08:09:34 PM
I posted a little while ago in the equipment section at the bottom about quality of pots and pans, especially stainless steel and those with clad bottoms, quality of the cookware plays a large roll in how something tastes believe it or not.  Thats why sometimes you can't duplicate grandma's chili or whatever recipe you may have gotten from her even though you follow it to a tee.  Sometimes the basic ingredients are just that.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: beerocd on January 12, 2010, 08:10:06 PM
You mean like brewing with "no pants".  ;D

Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where Kramer showers and cooks at the same time. Something just ewwww about it.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 12, 2010, 08:38:54 PM
FWIW, the "official" name for my Rye IPA recipe (assuming you brew my recipe without changes) is "Wry Smile IPA".

I used Hallertau, instead of Mt. Hood.  Should be close.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: roffenburger on January 12, 2010, 08:47:04 PM
I am a little bit confused with this post.
If you do not want to share recipe then do not post it.
Other recipes get name after the "creator" like Jamil Evil Twin...

But if neighbor of mine drinks my beer he does not care what recipe I used.

Lets get back to brewing. Shall we?

I don't make a big deal about it, but if asked about the recipe, I'll share where I got it or what I based it on. When I give beer away I don't say "Here's some beer, but I didn't come up with the recipe."

I don't think the question is if people use your recipe, it about giving credit to the creator.

I bet I could get away with recapping and delabeling some commercial beer and claiming as my own, but I'm not going to do that.... ;D
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: dean on January 12, 2010, 08:52:50 PM
I bet I could get away with recapping and delabeling some commercial beer and claiming as my own, but I'm not going to do that.... ;D

But you couldn't say it was your recipe either.   ;)
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: bluesman on January 12, 2010, 09:12:22 PM
I use malt, hops, yeast, and water.  So if your doing that in your recipe, make sure you credit me ???

There's no way for that to be possible because that one belongs to me.  ;D
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: brewboy on January 12, 2010, 10:10:36 PM
If it's good, then it's my recipe. If it sucks, then I credit who ever wrote the recipe
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: dean on January 13, 2010, 01:12:47 AM
I guess I kinda see it this way... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1h3alZfMXw
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: Podo on January 13, 2010, 02:30:01 AM
When I re-create someone else's recipe, I feel like Weird Al Yankovic.  Kinda like the original, but screwed up
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: bluesman on January 13, 2010, 02:48:12 AM
As long as I do this way...it's My Recipe.  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Lp4w8wyy0
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: Bret on January 13, 2010, 04:03:17 AM
Read and appreciate and absorb everyone's rockin' recipes.
Consult Designing Great BeersBy Ray Daniels.
Brew.
Receive Extreme BrewiingBy Dogfish Guy for Christmas.
Wonder...
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: Hokerer on January 14, 2010, 02:43:48 AM
Are we just talking about something like what I did with one of mine?

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/PigHoleRobustPorter (http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/PigHoleRobustPorter)
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: captain_sousie on January 14, 2010, 03:17:22 AM
So, if I take a bicycle and start replacing parts one at a time when is it a new bike?
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: beerocd on January 14, 2010, 05:20:40 AM
So, if I take a bicycle and start replacing parts one at a time when is it a new bike?

Plans for a bicycle. But anyway, 10 lbs 2row with either Fuggles or Cascades would be two pretty different beers wouldn't they? Was that 50 percent of the recipe(2 ingredients) or less than 1 percent(2 ounces out of 162)?

WWDD? - Denny, how much of your VIP do I need to change to where I don't have to say this is Denny's VIP anymore? What makes your VIP, your VIP?
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: corkybstewart on January 14, 2010, 05:35:29 AM
If I brew something I'm proud of I'll give the recipe away.  First of all no matter what I think I did, somebody probably did it before me.  And even if my recipe is somehow absolutely original I know that nobody will probably ever brew my beer exactly as I did so it won't be the same.  I'm from the Gulf of Mexico coast, my mom has made her gumbo for 65 years now.  She gave her recipe, and even trained us to make it, to me and my sister, but nobody would ever know that those 3 gumbos had any connection.  There's way too much more than just a recipe.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: denny on January 14, 2010, 05:56:14 PM
WWDD? - Denny, how much of your VIP do I need to change to where I don't have to say this is Denny's VIP anymore? What makes your VIP, your VIP?


Well, for one thing, the concept....but also the brown malt, the hop combo, and especially the overall flavor.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: dean on January 14, 2010, 06:43:44 PM
Denny, since you mentioned Brown malt, is that the same malt that Midwest calls "coffee" malt?  In their description they also say brown malt.  I've never tried that specific malt to get a coffee aroma or flavor so I ordered two pounds of it... kinda wondering if I bought the wrong malt now?
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: denny on January 14, 2010, 06:44:50 PM
Denny, since you mentioned Brown malt, is that the same malt that Midwest calls "coffee" malt?  In their description they also say brown malt.  I've never tried that specific malt to get a coffee aroma or flavor so I ordered two pounds of it... kinda wondering if I bought the wrong malt now?

Based on the coffee malt I've used in the past, it's different stuff.
Title: Re: Recipe ownership?
Post by: beerocd on January 14, 2010, 11:40:49 PM
Well, for one thing, the concept....but also the brown malt, the hop combo, and especially the overall flavor.

You realize you are just convenient for me to use as an example - nothing personal, right? So you are the original Vanilla Imperial Porter dude? I think that's creditworthy, And FWIW it is already a famous recipe, 14 pages on HBT so I don't guess you could really get away with STEALing this recipe.

So, any of those four things left in the original recipe - gets a *Denny Conn ?

* For the record, I don't even think I'll enter competitions, let alone start a brewery based on other peoples recipes. I just find this subject interesting.