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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: rjharper on October 07, 2011, 06:38:26 PM

Title: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on October 07, 2011, 06:38:26 PM
I'm about to brew a 1.130 RIS this weekend.  I'm looking for full body finish (Beersmith projects a 1.025), and is suggesting 30 mins protein at 122F then 30 mins sacch at 156F, and 1.3 qt/lb.  That sounds rather quick to me, especially given the 28lbs of grain, so I'm tempted to push it to 60 mins sacch, and change the ratio to 1.1 qt/lb. 
I've brewed some strong tripels and stouts in the past but those were extract, so any thoughts or suggestions from the more experienced crowd would be appreciated.  I've already knocked back my projected efficiency by a couple of points, and extended the boil time from 90 to 150 mins to account for the high gravity push.  And it goes without saying its big starter time, going to use a WLP007 yeast cake.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: denny on October 07, 2011, 06:51:22 PM
Skip the p rest and do a 60 min. single infusion.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on October 07, 2011, 06:55:19 PM
Thanks Denny,  I do have some oats and wheat in the grain bill.  Still skip the rest? I'll do the 60min infusion anyways.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: Hokerer on October 07, 2011, 07:05:12 PM
You might also want to come down a bit on the mash temp.  For a regular stout, you go that high so that the beer has plenty of body like a stout should.  With a mega-gravity brew, you can drop the mash temp and get a more fermentable wort and still have plenty of unfermentables left to provide the body.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: blatz on October 07, 2011, 07:25:40 PM
You might also want to come down a bit on the mash temp. 

Big time.

I make a well received RIS every couple of years - mash temp is always 149-150 - and it has as much, or more body than a Bell's Expedition

at 156 you might need a knife and fork.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: bonjour on October 07, 2011, 07:28:41 PM
With a 1.130 OG I'd mash for 2 hours at 148-149F
To hit a 1.024 FG that is 82% attenuation,  you need to make this as fermentable as possible.
Using a yeast cake is THE way to go.  When you aerate/oxygenate, exceed what you think you need to do by a good margin.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on October 07, 2011, 08:41:12 PM
You might also want to come down a bit on the mash temp. 
at 156 you might need a knife and fork.

And this is why I come here.  Duly noted, I'll adjust for 149F for 2 hours unless anyone recommends otherwise.  Man, a 2.5 hour mash and 2.5 hour boil, this is gonna be a looooooong brew day.  Mind you this thing wont be ready to drink for 12 months anyways...

Thank you all
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: bonjour on October 07, 2011, 10:42:09 PM
Ferment cool, mid 60s wort temp, pitch BELOW or at your ferment temp, and it will be good to drink the day you force carb it.  Do NOT try to bottle carb this beer.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: tom on October 08, 2011, 01:25:21 AM
Do you have sugar in your recipe?  Otherwise I wouldn't expect anything lower than 1.030.

And big beers take lots of yeast, lots of oxygen and lots of temperature control.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: snowtiger87 on October 08, 2011, 09:13:17 AM
Also, a beer this big would benefit from more than one shot of oxygenation. Do it before pitching and again 24 hours later.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on October 08, 2011, 05:50:36 PM
Do you have sugar in your recipe?  Otherwise I wouldn't expect anything lower than 1.030.

And big beers take lots of yeast, lots of oxygen and lots of temperature control.
Tom,
There' 2lbs of turbinado to help the FG a little.  Otherwise; yeast cake, check; O2, check: temp control, check.

Bonjour,
I'll force carb then bottle.

Rather excited to give this one a go...
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: Jimmy K on October 10, 2011, 01:20:13 PM
With a 1.130 OG I'd mash for 2 hours at 148-149F

The long mash should help with fermentability too. In a recent zymurgy article they talked about long-chain dextrins being cut into short fermentable sugars as mash time progressed.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: bonjour on October 10, 2011, 01:50:40 PM
The long mash is purely targeted at fermentability,  I picked up the hink from Noonan's book.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: davidgzach on October 10, 2011, 05:27:05 PM
Interested to know what process you ended up using and the OG.  I would have skipped the protein rest as well.  But I might have gone as high as 152 for the single infusion.

Dave
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on October 11, 2011, 02:53:42 PM
In the end I realized I was missing part of the O2 system, so I passed on the RIS and brewed a nice rye IPA this weekend .  Once I have everything in place I'll do a 2 hour mash at 149-150, oxygenate heavily, and let you all know what happens.  I like these threads to have a result, not just pre-brew recommendations.

Thanks, all
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: tom on October 11, 2011, 06:13:42 PM
Don't add more oxygen than usual all at once, just repeat it somewhere between 4-24 hours after pitching.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on November 14, 2011, 01:02:29 AM
So finally got round to brewing this today.  Mashed at 150 for 2 hours.  Boiled for 3 hours to get volume down. Aerated with oxygen before pitching, then 2 hrs after.  Pitched a huge WLP007 slurry at 60F.  OG hit 1.135.  I'll let you know how it turns out.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: jmcamerlengo on November 15, 2011, 05:57:25 PM
Mash at 149-150 for sure.  Also Irish Ale yeast at fermented at 70 works great with RIS..gives just enough diacetyl that I think is desirable in a RIS.

Dry hopping also can add complexity to the mouthfeel.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: bluesman on November 15, 2011, 06:06:17 PM
Looking at some of the NHC Gold medal winning recipes I'm seeing higher mash temps like 152F and as high as 158F on the most recent RIS brewed by Streve Fletty. Perhaps there is something to be said about that... Maybe the more dextrinous profile lends some balance to the beer. Apparently the BJCP Judges liked it.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on November 15, 2011, 08:02:28 PM
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/390198_10150464453840081_285119700080_10693610_281370139_n.jpg)

So no problems getting fermentation going then.  This is after the 1st 24hrs...
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: bluesman on November 15, 2011, 08:06:03 PM
I have a 1.120 RIS going in my fermentation chamber at 62F and I had to install the blowoff hose only after 8hrs. It was still blowing krausen after 36hrs this a.m.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on November 29, 2011, 04:00:32 AM
Update, after 2 weeks its gone from 1.134 to 1.042 and seems to have stalled out.  That's about 70% attenuation to 12.5% or so.  I used a full yeast cake of WLP007 Dry English, which is rated for 70-80% attenuation and tolerant to 8-12%.  I'm thinking it could have gone further but I lost a lot of yeast out the blow off.  I figure I have four options.

1. Rouse the yeast again, and see if it goes any further but its been still for a week.
2. I have a Belgian Strong Dark bubbling away. I figure in a week or so I'll have a fresh cake of WLP550 Belgian Ale, with 78-85% attenuation and 8-12% tolerance. I'm thinking I could go from RIS to Belgian RIS.
3. I'm planning to brew a Blonde Ale soon on WLP001 California, with 73-80% attenuation and 10-15% tolerance.  I had planned a different route for that yeast cake but if needs must, although thats easily two weeks out.
4. Grow up a big starter of WLP099 Super Yeast or >80% attenuation and >15% abv.

I like idea number 2 personally.

On any of the above I've been fermenting at 64F so far, and I can raise that to 68-70F.  I don't think its fermentables since I mashed long and low, and added sugar to boost fermentability and account for modified grains.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: tygo on November 29, 2011, 11:38:34 AM
Transferring the RIS onto a yeast cake is not likely to do much.  Even if there are fermentable sugars available the yeast are going to be less than enthusiastic about going to work in that environment.  Your best bet is to get a small starter going, say a quart, let it get to high krausen, and pitch that directly into the RIS fermenter. 

That might shave a few more points off but I'm going to guess not very many.  I think you're probably close to done on this one.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on November 29, 2011, 02:45:50 PM
Thanks tygo
My thoughts on yeast cake versus starter were primarily based on cell count, there's going to be a whole lot more yeast in the cake than a quart starter.

I suppose I could throw in option 5, and pitch EC1118 Champagne Yeast but that seems like a Hail Mary.

Taste wise, its still too sweet, although not by much.  If I could shave off 5 more points I'd be happy enough.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: bluesman on November 29, 2011, 02:45:58 PM

That might shave a few more points off but I'm going to guess not very many.  I think you're probably close to done on this one.

+1

Sounds like it may likely be finished.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: tygo on November 29, 2011, 03:04:41 PM
My thoughts on yeast cake versus starter were primarily based on cell count, there's going to be a whole lot more yeast in the cake than a quart starter.

True, but the yeast in the starter will be wide awake and in the middle of fermenting stuff.  When you pitch them in they're more likely to keep eating.

I did this for an American BW that didn't attenuate as well as I hoped.  It stalled at 1.040.  I pitched two packs of US-05 in a one liter starter, let it get going, and pitched it into the fermenter.  FG on that one ended up being 1.038.  So it helped a little, but not much.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: rjharper on November 29, 2011, 04:03:07 PM

That might shave a few more points off but I'm going to guess not very many.  I think you're probably close to done on this one.

+1

Sounds like it may likely be finished.

That may be the case but I hope not.  Out of 28lbs of grain, only 4lbs were highly modified (1ea of Carafa III, Chocolate, Coffee and Roast Barley).  Everything else was Pale or Munich, plus added sugar, and I mashed at 150. 

Next time I do this, I'm doing sugar additions at high krausen.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: denny on November 29, 2011, 04:20:00 PM
only 4lbs were highly modified (1ea of Carafa III, Chocolate, Coffee and Roast Barley).

Color isn't an indicator of the degree of modification.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: tomsawyer on November 29, 2011, 04:32:19 PM
You could add some starter wort to your cake and wake it up that way, then pitch the beer on it.  That would give you cell count as well as revved up cells.  When yeast floc out they are kind of going into dormancy.

Did you move this to a warm place for the last part of fermentation?  That might help a bit.

Overall I agree with those who say the beer is done, I generally figure on getting the low end of attenuation from a yeast when I'm putting it in the high end its alcohol tolerance.  Thats where some sugar helps, you figure on getting 70% attenuation from your malt and closer to 100% from your sugar.

And one final thought, don't judge the beer as too sweet just yet.  As it mellows and the flavors blend it might just suit you as is.  You really don't want it too dry with all that alcohol in there.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: Pi on November 29, 2011, 05:40:34 PM
I did a RIS a few years ago with similar results. I "fortified" it with grain alcohol. Invert sugar works well, but a little late for that. wish I could tell you where i found the calculator for adding Everclear. Maybe someone here can help.
Title: Re: Strong RIS Mash Schedule
Post by: tschmidlin on November 30, 2011, 04:52:45 AM
And one final thought, don't judge the beer as too sweet just yet.  As it mellows and the flavors blend it might just suit you as is.  You really don't want it too dry with all that alcohol in there.
Not to mention temp and carb will affect the perception of sweetness.