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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: deepsouth on January 14, 2010, 11:06:30 am

Title: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 14, 2010, 11:06:30 am
also, this yeast says to ferment between 60-72...  would i be ok on the lower end of this?



11 lb. maris otter
1 lb. crystal 60
.5 lb de-bittered black
.5 lb flaked oats

1 oz amarillo @ 60
1 oz simcoe @ 60
.5 oz amarillo @ 20
.5 oz simcoe @ 20
.5 oz amarillo @ 0
.5 oz simcoe @ 0

wyeast london ale 1028 (w/ starter)

i'll probably dry hop it with an ounce of something, but i'm not sure what.



i'll be brewing an abyss-ish clone to pitch on the yeast cake after i rack this one.


thanks for looking.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: dean on January 14, 2010, 11:18:45 am
Since you're using debittered black malt it will probably be okay but you don't need that much of it.  I wouldn't use as much crystal (maybe 1/2 to 3/4 pound) and I wouldn't use the flaked oats.  But since its a black IPA it really doesn't need to meet a standard for IPA's anyway does it?  jmo.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: majorvices on January 14, 2010, 11:35:22 am
I would also cut the crystal in half. Not sure if the oats will do much, but might lend some mouthfeel... On the topic of Black IPAs, does anyone have a recipe for a Pale Stout?  ;) j/k
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: mikeypedersen on January 14, 2010, 11:38:55 am
I would also cut the crystal in half. Not sure if the oats will do much, but might lend some mouthfeel... On the topic of Black IPAs, does anyone have a recipe for a Pale Stout?  ;) j/k
I've got a great recipe for an Imperial Mild.  ;D  Also j/k
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on January 14, 2010, 11:47:07 am
the hop schedule looks awfully weak in the hop flavor dept.  this is supposed to be an IPA after all...

I like the oats idea, and could take it or leave it on the xtal - don't really have a strong opinion either way.

also, I've used 1028 low before and it handles the low temp pretty well (62-4 is where i've placed it), though I would let it ramp up in temp at the end to ensure full attenuation.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: dean on January 14, 2010, 11:54:34 am
On the topic of Black IPAs, does anyone have a recipe for a Pale Stout?  ;) j/k

I think thats probably a very close description really, maybe a pale imperial stout?  I've done it on accident using roasted barley and its too much roasted flavor for an IPA imo.  I'll never do it again... at least I hope I don't.   :D
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 14, 2010, 12:20:50 pm
just talked to my buddy who also brews.....

i'm definitely dropping the de-bittered crystal down to .25 lb. and i 'm going to use 1 oz of black patent.


as far as the hop schedule goes....  it only looks like about 70 IBU...  ok for an ipa (for my taste) but i probably will add a third hop in at 60 and dry hop with the same one....  citra maybe????
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on January 14, 2010, 12:32:01 pm
as far as the hop schedule goes....  it only looks like about 70 IBU...  ok for an ipa (for my taste) but i probably will add a third hop in at 60 and dry hop with the same one....  citra maybe????

The way it is now, your beer just looks bitter, but doesn't say "IPA" to me.

IBUs and hop flavor and aroma are different.  I was talking about the fact that you only have 1oz after the 60min addition - very,very weak.  I generally have at least 8oz of hops during the last 20min of the boil (though I do double the size batches as you do).  

I would double the 20 minute addition, do the same addition at 10 or 5 min, double or maybe triple the flameout addition.  AND dryhop it.

Lower your 60min additions to get to whatever the IBU target you want after accounting for the late hops.

Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 14, 2010, 01:07:28 pm
as far as the hop schedule goes....  it only looks like about 70 IBU...  ok for an ipa (for my taste) but i probably will add a third hop in at 60 and dry hop with the same one....  citra maybe????

The way it is now, your beer just looks bitter, but doesn't say "IPA" to me.

IBUs and hop flavor and aroma are different.  I was talking about the fact that you only have 1oz after the 60min addition - very,very weak.  I generally have at least 8oz of hops during the last 20min of the boil (though I do double the size batches as you do). 

I would double the 20 minute addition, do the same addition at 10 or 5 min, double or maybe triple the flameout addition.  AND dryhop it.

Lower your 60min additions to get to whatever the IBU target you want after accounting for the late hops.




that's probably not a bad idea.  i've been told i was always heavy handed on the hops, so hearing that this is light on them surprises me, but i'm not opposed to throwing a bunch more in.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on January 14, 2010, 01:19:21 pm
i've been told i was always heavy handed on the hops,

exactly my point  ;) - you're heavy handed on the bitterness part of it (which may be what people are perceiving) - which, with this recipe you certainly are!  You have more bittering hop in for a 5gal batch than I do for my 12gal IPAs, even though mine are around 65-70ibus too!  

less bittering hop (relative to what you have) and more late hops yields a much better IPA, IMO.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 14, 2010, 01:39:28 pm
i've been told i was always heavy handed on the hops,

exactly my point  ;) - you're heavy handed on the bitterness part of it (which may be what people are perceiving) - which, with this recipe you certainly are!  You have more bittering hop in for a 5gal batch than I do for my 12gal IPAs, even though mine are around 65-70ibus too! 

less bittering hop (relative to what you have) and more late hops yields a much better IPA, IMO.


thanks!  i'll sort out that tonight.  i wanted to use more than two different hop varieties anyway.  i guess i'll go crazy on the late additons. 

i'll update this later tonight with some more hops and additions and times.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: majorvices on January 14, 2010, 01:56:54 pm
Agree with blatz on the bitterness - most of my American IPAs get the majority of their BUs after the 20 minute mark. For my 70 BU IPA I only put in ~22 BUs at the 60 min mark.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 14, 2010, 02:20:36 pm
Agree with blatz on the bitterness - most of my American IPAs get the majority of their BUs after the 20 minute mark. For my 70 BU IPA I only put in ~22 BUs at the 60 min mark.

how much hops do you have to add to get most of your bittering done at 20 minutes or later?????
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: beersk on January 14, 2010, 02:34:01 pm
Still don't get this fascination with black "IPAs"...
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on January 14, 2010, 02:53:13 pm
Still don't get this fascination with black "IPAs"...

have you had Stone Sublimely Self Righteous?

how much hops do you have to add to get most of your bittering done at 20 minutes or later?????

 deepsouth - it depends a lot on the AA (of course) but I generally use 12-15oz of hops (mostly C-hops, Simcoe and Amarillo - so mostly high alpha stuff) for a 12gal batch of IPA - 2-3 for dryhop, ~2 for bittering, 8-10 for <20 minutes, including flameout additions.

Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: majorvices on January 14, 2010, 02:57:38 pm
South - here's a look at my IPA.

House IPA

12 gallons
OG 1.065 - 1.068
BU ~70

12 lbs Pils Malt
12 lbs Maris Otter
2 lbs Wheat
2 llbs cara vienne

1oz Magnum (14) @ 60
1oz Columbus (14) @ 20
2 oz Columbus (14) @ 10
2 oz Centennial (10.5) @ 10
2 oz Columbus @ 2
2 oz Centennial @ 2

US-05
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 14, 2010, 03:04:07 pm
Still don't get this fascination with black "IPAs"...

good stuff yo.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: majorvices on January 14, 2010, 03:16:00 pm
This fascination is the conundrum - how can you have something that is Black and Pale?  ;) (sorry all of you that have heard me blab about this before. )
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 14, 2010, 03:28:01 pm
and whomever mentioned the imperial mild.....  my friend is working on one.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on January 14, 2010, 03:38:48 pm
This fascination is the conundrum - how can you have something that is Black and Pale?  ;) (sorry all of you that have heard me blab about this before. )

its kinda like jumbo shrimp.  which I also like...

I've only had 2, but the Stone one is simply divine. 
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: beersk on January 14, 2010, 04:13:04 pm
This fascination is the conundrum - how can you have something that is Black and Pale?  ;) (sorry all of you that have heard me blab about this before. )

Then it's not an IPA, it's a hoppy black ale.  And jumbo shrimp are still shrimp, they are still pretty small organisms.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 14, 2010, 05:25:25 pm
the best thing about beer is the only limit is your imagination!
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: a10t2 on January 14, 2010, 05:46:42 pm
deepsouth - it depends a lot on the AA (of course) but I generally use 12-15oz of hops (mostly C-hops, Simcoe and Amarillo - so mostly high alpha stuff) for a 12gal batch of IPA - 2-3 for dryhop, ~2 for bittering, 8-10 for <20 minutes, including flameout additions.

That sounds about right to me. I use ~6 oz for a 5 gal batch. About 1 oz at 60 min (~40 IBU), .5 oz at 20, 15, 10, and 5 min, 1.5 oz at 0, and 1.5 oz dry hop. comes out to 70-80 IBU or so for typical 8-12% AA hops.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: babalu87 on January 15, 2010, 05:42:53 am
I'd question the use of oats but otherwise the recipe looks ok, maybe cut back the Crystal to 1/2 or 3/4 lb.

I use Brown malt in mine along with 15% Munich 2% Roasted and 1+% Carafa II or III


Still don't get this fascination with black "IPAs"...

Wow, very insightful
Do you have anything else to add?
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: majorvices on January 15, 2010, 06:54:29 am
Yeah, I'm all about trying my hand a a Black IPA, or a Hoppy Black Ale, or whatever you want to call it. I'm fascinated with giving people a hard time about the name - however I wouldn't turn down a pint, that's for sure.  ;D

One thing I will say on the topic: IMO just making the color dark is not good enough for me. I want just a touch of roast character if I am going to call it a black IPA. I think the small addition of Black or Roasted Malt/Barley is a good idea.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: babalu87 on January 15, 2010, 06:59:47 am
Yeah, I'm all about trying my hand a a Black IPA, or a Hoppy Black Ale, or whatever you want to call it. I'm fascinated with giving people a hard time about the name - however I wouldn't turn down a pint, that's for sure.  ;D

One thing I will say on the topic: IMO just making the color dark is not good enough for me. I want just a touch of roast character if I am going to call it a black IPA. I think the small addition of Black or Roasted Malt/Barley is a good idea.

THIS

When I was making up the recipe I wanted dark AND roasty
I think the brown malt was key in mine as well.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on January 15, 2010, 07:21:27 am
I'd question the use of oats but otherwise the recipe looks ok, maybe cut back the Crystal to 1/2 or 3/4 lb.

I use Brown malt in mine along with 15% Munich 2% Roasted and 1+% Carafa II or III


so its really a Schwartzbier-IPA  or is it Baltic IPA ;D ;D  ::)

I agree with you Keith, and the Stone version has just the right amount of roastiness.  I would think that a decent amount of Carafa Special will get you there.

Interesting use of the brown malt - I will have to keep that in mind when I get around to making one of these.

Good discussion.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: babalu87 on January 15, 2010, 07:34:54 am
Quote
so its really a Schwartzbier-IPA  or is it Baltic IPA

Those would both require the use of a lager yeast  :P
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on January 15, 2010, 07:41:49 am
Those would both require the use of a lager yeast  :P

touche!  (though Baltic could be with ale yeast).

perhaps I should make one with 830 and call it an IndiaSchwartzbier to really screw with people!
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 15, 2010, 07:50:37 am
i looked at my hops yesterday and i have some odd ones i haven't tried yet...

zeus
apollo
citra....

maybe a good beer to try some of these as late hop additions in small-ish amounts?
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on January 15, 2010, 08:02:38 am
maybe a good beer to try some of these as late hop additions in small-ish amounts?

I don't think you quite get what we're saying  ;).  For late hops (flavor and aroma) the quantity is more important than the IBUs.  So whether it's Simcoe (14% AA) or Crystal (~4%AA) I'm going to use 4oz at 20 minutes - you need a high quantity of hops to put big hop flavor and aroma into the beer, regardless of what the alpha acids are.

You control the overall bitterness by using the early hops (60min) as your plug for the cumulative IBUs.  So in my simple example, the beer with Simcoe as the late hops, to get my targeted IBU for the beer, I may only need 1.5oz of Columbus as the 60min bittering charge, whereas with the Crystal hopped beer, I may need 3 or even 4oz to get the IBU target.

If you go 'smallish' late, your going to have 'smallish' flavor and aroma. 
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: majorvices on January 15, 2010, 10:05:21 am
Its all subjective but when I brew an IPA I go with a base bitterness (as mentioned before, around 20 IBUs or so) and then hammer it home with the finishing and flavor/aroma hops. Zuess (which is aka Columbus) is a great dual purpose hop and I love it (see my IPA recipe in this thread somewhere). I have never even heard of apollo and haven;t tried citra yet but have heard good things about it.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 15, 2010, 10:08:24 am
maybe a good beer to try some of these as late hop additions in small-ish amounts?

I don't think you quite get what we're saying  ;).  For late hops (flavor and aroma) the quantity is more important than the IBUs.  So whether it's Simcoe (14% AA) or Crystal (~4%AA) I'm going to use 4oz at 20 minutes - you need a high quantity of hops to put big hop flavor and aroma into the beer, regardless of what the alpha acids are.

You control the overall bitterness by using the early hops (60min) as your plug for the cumulative IBUs.  So in my simple example, the beer with Simcoe as the late hops, to get my targeted IBU for the beer, I may only need 1.5oz of Columbus as the 60min bittering charge, whereas with the Crystal hopped beer, I may need 3 or even 4oz to get the IBU target.

If you go 'smallish' late, your going to have 'smallish' flavor and aroma. 


by smallish, i mean an ounce or two of each!  i may even go with a few hops at the 60 minute hop additions in much smaller amounts than that though. 
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: nychomebrewer on January 15, 2010, 03:43:43 pm
I think the current terminology for one of these is Cascadian Dark Ale or Cascade Dark Ale. Obviously you are going for the hoppiness of an IPA but with a dark color and I, personally, don't think they should have a roasty flavor. I do think they can have more malty backbone and mouthfeel then most IPAs. But what do I know.

I tried one by the Twenty First Amendment brewery that I still start to drool thinking about. I don't know what is so attractive other than the fact that I drank expecting a porter, and experienced everything I love about both styles. yum

NYCHomebrewer
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: majorvices on January 15, 2010, 04:59:45 pm
Obviously you are going for the hoppiness of an IPA but with a dark color and I, personally, don't think they should have a roasty flavor.

Not saying you are wrong, but if you have it dark without roastiness it seems like a gimmick to me. seems like what a lot of the brew pubs are going for though. FTR I'm not saying the should be stout roasty - just I think there should be a hint of roast or there is no point IMO.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on January 15, 2010, 05:01:56 pm
all this talk of black ipa....dammit, I am going to crack my last Stone Sublime tonight...I can't take it!!!  ;) ;D
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 16, 2010, 07:05:45 am
new hop profile....

0.50 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (Dry Hop 14 days) Hops - 
1.50 oz Citra [11.00 %] (Dry Hop 14 days) Hops - 
0.50 oz Zeus [15.00 %] (60 min) Hops 22.7 IBU
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (60 min) Hops 6.1 IBU
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (60 min) Hops 8.8 IBU
0.25 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (60 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
0.50 oz Citra [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.0 IBU
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (20 min) Hops 5.9 IBU
0.50 oz Citra [11.00 %] (20 min) Hops 9.1 IBU
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (20 min) Hops 4.1 IBU
0.75 oz Zeus [14.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
0.50 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (0 min) Hops -
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on January 18, 2010, 08:02:36 am
and the final grain bill was....

12 lb maris otter
.5 lb crystal 60
1 oz black patent
7 oz de-bittered black


i ended up doing a 90 minute boil.  i made one small change to the hop additions...

0.50 oz Zeus [15.00 %] (60 min)
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %]
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (60 min)
0.25 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (60 min)
0.50 oz Citra [11.00 %] (60 min)
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (20 min)
0.75 oz Citra [11.00 %] (20 min)
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (20 min)
0.75 oz Zeus [14.00 %] (0 min)   
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (0 min) 
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (0 min)   
0.50 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (0 min)


i finished with about 4.5 gallons.  it ended up dark dark brown instead of black.  my final gravity was 18 plato, which was spot on with what i was shooting for.

the london ale 1028 (w/starter) started bubbling in a couple hours and this morning had about one inch of krausen!  (my first starter)

i'll update this thread after i know a little more about how this turns out.

first AG brew day with pretty smooth.  no hitches with equipment or anything.  i need to rig up some sort of sparge arm or something that works well with 10 gal. rubbermaid coolers.....


Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: redbeerman on January 19, 2010, 12:36:28 pm
I would keep the crystal 60 at 1 lb.  But that's to my taste.  I agree with moving the hops to later additions as well.  My bittering addition is usually around 30 IBU if the beer is 70 or above total.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: weazletoe on January 20, 2010, 02:26:37 pm
- however I wouldn't turn down a pint, that's for sure.  ;D

Oh, I bet you would turn down a pint of mine!  ;D
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: yaleterrace on January 23, 2010, 11:28:20 am
as far as the hop schedule goes....  it only looks like about 70 IBU...  ok for an ipa (for my taste) but i probably will add a third hop in at 60 and dry hop with the same one....  citra maybe????
[/quote]

id recommend doing a 45 min bittering hop.  try covering a broader infusion spectrum, its plugs the holes, so to speak, in monotone hop flavor.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on February 05, 2010, 06:31:51 pm
i kegged this tonight.  i didn't get out a large enough sample to get a FG (sorry), but i can report on some findings....

the fermentation kicked off right away and really took off for probably two+ days before it slowed, but i did not get a lot of krausen.  the trub is the smallest i've ever seen in my dozen batches.

the beer is a dark brown with a hint of red.  it's sweet up front and there is some alcohol burn on the way down.  the alcohol burn actually surprised me.  i'm happy with the malt end.  i wish it had been darker.  hard to call this a black ipa....  given the nice sweetness it has and the (less hoppy than i thought it would be) hoppiness, i'd compare it to a dogfish head indian brown.  the hops are fruity, but not overpowering in any way.  i actually thought this beer would be hoppier and next time, it will be.  that said, i'm still pleased with the result.

this beer tastes fantastic flat and my limited experience in kegging tells me this beer is going to be even better once it's carbonated.

Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on February 05, 2010, 06:34:13 pm
i actually thought this beer would be hoppier and next time, it will be. 

I hate to say "we told you so" but, we told you so.  ;)

Sounds like you have a nice, tasty beer on your hands - prost!
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: deepsouth on February 05, 2010, 06:44:10 pm
i actually thought this beer would be hoppier and next time, it will be. 

I hate to say "we told you so" but, we told you so.  ;)

Sounds like you have a nice, tasty beer on your hands - prost!

touche'

it was a learning experience for sure.  fortunately, brewing learning experiences often still result in fantastic beer.  what a beautiful thing.

anyone know where my big trub is?
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: boletivore on February 16, 2010, 04:39:48 pm
I found a recipe for the Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous online that supposedly came from the brewery.

I am looking at this recipe, sized in boil volume to work with my mashtun

10 gallons
O.G. 1.082
F.G. 1.019
I.B.U. 119

27# 2-row
1# 6oz. Crystal 60L
1# 6oz. Carafa III

6.25oz. Chinook 60min.
3.5oz.   Simcoe 1min.
3.6oz.   Amarillo 1 min.

I will need to figure out substitutes for the Simcoe hops, suggestions are welcomed.  Maybe some Northern Brewer.  I may substitute Cascades for the Amarillo because I have several pounds of Cascade hops.

All thoughts welcome
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: Nagel Family Brewing on February 17, 2010, 03:56:40 pm
3.5oz.   Simcoe 1min.
3.6oz.   Amarillo 1 min.

I maybe and probably am wrong, but you may want to look at the timing of these additions.  It may be a whirlpool addition at the brewery so you may want to consider moving them back or steeping them after flameout before chilling for 20 minutes or so.  Just a thought.  Curious what the forum has to say.
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: blatz on February 19, 2010, 08:19:42 am
that's a good point Ryan N - theres a lot of hop flavor in the Sublime, and I can't imagine that you'd get all that much from that schedule without a whirlpool (which they apparently do for a an hour?).
Title: Re: a black ipa... how does this look?
Post by: boletivore on February 19, 2010, 08:29:17 am
With current outdoor temperatures I think they would see temperatures above 160 during chilling for at least 10 minutes, but maybe moving them back or splitting them into 2 additions is a good idea.  I would be using all pellet hops if that makes any difference.

I also didn't list and dry hopping but would be doing that for sure, just haven't worked out what that would be.

I have a chest for crashing to remove my dry hops.

Thanks