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General Category => Zymurgy => Topic started by: euge on November 08, 2011, 06:51:00 PM

Title: Fast turnaround.
Post by: euge on November 08, 2011, 06:51:00 PM
Reading Drew's article about knocking out a batch and serving within six days.

Now that I have proper temp control his method is more accessible to me. Crashing primary ar the end of the third day;  racking to keg on the fourth and continuing to crash; transferring to another keg on the fifth with carbonating and serving on the sixth.

For average strength beers why isn't this approach considered to be more conventional? Oftentimes people are strongly advised to leave their beer in primary for much longer for conditioning purposes.

While I have turned around beers in less than a week before my habit has been to follow a convention that doesn't 100% make sense to me. Shouldn't this approach be taught more?
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: roguenationpatriot on November 08, 2011, 07:02:52 PM
Reading Drew's article about knocking out a batch and serving within six days.

Now that I have proper temp control his method is more accessible to me. Crashing primary ar the end of the third day;  racking to keg on the fourth and continuing to crash; transferring to another keg on the fifth with carbonating and serving on the sixth.

For average strength beers why isn't this approach considered to be more conventional? Oftentimes people are strongly advised to leave their beer in primary for much longer for conditioning purposes.

While I have turned around beers in less than a week before my habit has been to follow a convention that doesn't 100% make sense to me. Shouldn't this approach be taught more?


I agree it seems like it would be beneficial to know both methods(Quick and Traditional) and determine the proper method based on the project at hand. I've rarely heard anyone talk about doing a quick batch, and almost never seen a reference guide on the process.(Outside this recent article)
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: morticaixavier on November 08, 2011, 09:06:16 PM
In the last month or so I have brewed two batches of something that might be called an ordinary bitter or possibly a mild ale and been drinking on day 8. I think with some styles it works great and others really benefit from the extra time even at a low gravity. Beligan pales comes to mind as the yeast throws so much character at the begining that it is good to let it clean up after itself a bit.

My batches were

1st one was second runnings from a barley wine. Brewed on sunday morning/afternoon. The whole grist (10lbs for 1 gallon of BW and just under 4 of small) was mashed at 148 for 90 minutes and then the tun drained and capped with .5 lbs of carastan. sparge water, 20 more minutes and drain second runnings. I pitched 1 smack pack of 1968 to that one and kegged it the next saturday and started drinking sunday evening with dinner. It was yummy. I think better at first than a week later honestly

2nd was a bitter as a starter for the next weeks BW. again brewed sunday. 6.5lbs munich and .5 crystal 40 mashed at 158 for 60 minutes and pitched with 1 smack pack of 1098 ( I think that's the right number) kegged the following saturday evening and tapped that sunday for dinner again.

I will say that for this style I will very likely always follow this method from now on. the taste is so fresh and good.

Interestingly they both came out at 1.008. I suspect the difference in mash temp was offset by the relative attenuation of the yeasts.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: dbeechum on November 08, 2011, 09:35:58 PM
What I wrote about in that article is stuff I've learned watching the pros do it. Those guys have to carefully balance that time in tank for aging vs. money / production space.

It's totally inappropriate in some cases, but otherwise I have feeling there are times as homebrewers that we dawdle too much.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: euge on November 08, 2011, 10:27:22 PM
BTW nice article and I hope it inspires more people to try it.

Drew I was thinking of the pro's actions as well. You are replicating what a large brewery does on a small scale. They certainly cannot afford to have beer sitting in the fermenters for the length of time we are accustomed to. So the balance is giving the yeast enough exposure to the beer to finish the job and then removing them from the picture as quickly as possible. At least that's how I have always believed.

Dawdle. ;D I need to rack and brew. Somehow some other task presents itself...

Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: dzlater on November 09, 2011, 12:05:05 AM
I think people would by kits that said "bottle after x days", folks would do this and make crappy beer.
So then all the advice was to let it sit for longer time frames. Which resulted in the "I let all my beers sit in primary for at least a month and they are sooooo much better". So now people think it's impossible to have quick turn over.
Somehow the "don't transfer to secondary" advice morphed into leave it in the primary for what I would consider much longer then necessary.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Mark G on November 09, 2011, 04:33:47 PM
Well, it's a lot easier as a homebrewer to say, "I think it's done, but since I'm not 100% sure, I'll just let it sit another week." Pros can't do that. I do agree that we probably dawdle too much at times, especially if you know you have a large, healthy amount of yeast, proper aeration, and control of your fermentation temps. If you're not convinced you have control of those factors, continue dawdling.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: dbeechum on November 09, 2011, 11:10:41 PM
Well, it's a lot easier as a homebrewer to say, "I think it's done, but since I'm not 100% sure, I'll just let it sit another week."

Agreed and the article shouldn't be read as an attack on that - more as a friendly nudge to be alacrious in your brewing efforts.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Kit B on November 14, 2011, 10:16:22 PM
Decided to give this a shot with a small twist, to see what happens with WLP001.
I know, I know...Low flocculation, as the article stated.
I made the following:
11/11/11 Ale
5.25 gallons

3.5# Munich I
4# 2-row
1.5# Corn
1/2 oz 8.5% Northern Brewer - 60 min
1/2 oz 8.5% Northern Brewer - flameout
2 vials WLP001

1.049 OG

I'll crash & use gelatin, after the krausen falls.
Hope to be drinking it, on Thanksgiving.

I'll post my results.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Kit B on November 21, 2011, 03:35:42 PM
My krausen is refusing to drop...I have a feeling it won't be ready.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: dbeechum on November 21, 2011, 04:36:00 PM
Check the gravity and then give it the cold!
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Kit B on November 23, 2011, 07:24:39 PM
Here's hoping the cold crashing + gelatin do the trick.
This is my first time using gelatin.
Gelatin was added 24 hours after the fermenter was placed into the cold.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Kit B on December 09, 2011, 02:54:02 PM
Looking back on my experiment, I'm able to give some solid advice.
For fast turnaround:
1) Stay away from WLP001.
2) 17% corn was too much, for my recipe.

Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: dzlater on December 09, 2011, 10:45:04 PM
I am drinking a Brown Ale.
It went from 1.052 to 1.012 in 4 days. Safale SO4
Kegged it after 9 days
did the quick carb thing, and was drinking it that evening. ;D
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: dbeechum on December 09, 2011, 10:56:08 PM
Kit, I warned ya didn't I? :)

And yeah for brown ales!
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Bret on December 10, 2011, 03:58:36 PM
Hey Drew--what is the best yeast for express brewing in you experience?
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: dbeechum on December 11, 2011, 06:13:08 PM
I tend to use a British yeast, my usual is either Thames Valley or Essex (seasonal). I would recommend against Ringwood, but that's my general recommendation since I hate that yeast. The standard White Labs British strains work great as well.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: tschmidlin on December 11, 2011, 09:54:39 PM
i also like S-04, and Wyeast 1028, 1084, and 1098.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Bret on December 12, 2011, 03:18:48 AM
Thanks, Drew.  I've been thinking about Thames Valley anyway.  Hey Tom, I've used 1028 plenty--a house fav.  Used 1084 lots, too. Guess I'll have to play with 1098 now as well.  I have not experimented with the different strains enough.  Left that as my constant when dialing in other stuff.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Kit B on December 12, 2011, 06:50:41 PM
Kit, I warned ya didn't I? :)

And yeah for brown ales!

Yep...Sadly, I bought the yeast, before I read your article & didn't have anything else on hand.
:)
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: a10t2 on December 12, 2011, 10:34:15 PM
1272 is a good choice for a fast turnaround IMO. It's basically just a more flocculant Chico.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: morticaixavier on December 13, 2011, 09:22:08 PM
Alright. I have a question on this topic as well.

Normally I don't worry to much about clarity and with floccy yeast it's really not much of an issue but I am mid speed brew for a party on the 17th with my brew club and I want to impress them  :D so I am trying to get a really clear beer. I used WLP002 and that, in my experience leaves the beer pretty clear after cold crashing but I want to go ahead and fine it according to the schedule in the zymurgy article. But I only have the 1 keg so there is no fining in the keg and transfering to a clean keg.

Should I add the 'gelatine' (agar actually as I am a vegetarian, but same difference) to the primary tonight? or should I keg tonight and add the finings in the keg, just blow out the first pint tomorrow?

If in the keg would it work to add the disolved gelatin to the empty keg and then rack the beer on top of it to mix?

**EDIT to explain status of brew**

I brewed friday night og 1.033 sg last night (Tuesday) was 1.012 which is fine for me. Put it in the fridge to crash last night. The plan was to fine in primary tomorrow night (wednesday) and keg thursday. I was going to just leave a fair amount of beer behind in the primary to avoid as much yeast/trub as I can.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: tschmidlin on December 13, 2011, 09:43:44 PM
Alright. I have a question on this topic as well.
In your case I would recommend a secondary vessel for fining, then keg it.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Kit B on December 13, 2011, 09:58:05 PM
If you can, you should probably give it a couple of days, to settle.
I used gelatine & the carboy was still cloudy, after 2 days.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: morticaixavier on December 13, 2011, 10:01:08 PM
If you can, you should probably give it a couple of days, to settle.
I used gelatine & the carboy was still cloudy, after 2 days.

Alright. I have a question on this topic as well.
In your case I would recommend a secondary vessel for fining, then keg it.

okay that works for me. I will transfer to a secondary tonight, add gelatine and keg on thursday. That actually works nicely cause I would like to save that yeast cake.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: bluesman on December 14, 2011, 01:52:54 AM
You can follow Tom's suggestion in confidence, but I also think you could just add the gelatin into the cold crashed primary then keg after a couple days. I usually avoid a secondary if at all possible. Although you'll be fine either way, especially since you're consuming the beer right away anyway.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Kit B on December 14, 2011, 04:44:34 PM
Does gelatin muck up the cake & render it useless?
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: bo on December 14, 2011, 04:52:08 PM
Does gelatin muck up the cake & render it useless?

Yes it will screw up your cake. Rack to a secondary first or do this in your keg and rack from the top of it.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: morticaixavier on December 14, 2011, 05:12:50 PM
I went with toms suggestion. I purged the recieving carboy with co2 (as much as I can without a carboy cap) using the empty keg and cobra tap. added the agar solution and racked on top of it then back into the cold fridge. tomorrow I keg.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: morticaixavier on December 16, 2011, 08:55:30 AM
Alright, so here I sit, 6 days almost to the minute from pitching yeast and sipping from my ridiculously hopped session ale.

It's a 1.033 down to 1.010 and 65 IBU. perfectly carbed after about 10 minutes shaking the keg. yum
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: dbeechum on December 16, 2011, 03:19:25 PM
Woo hoo!
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: Kit B on December 16, 2011, 03:40:20 PM
Excellent!
Any photos?
How's the clarity?
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: morticaixavier on December 16, 2011, 04:11:23 PM
Excellent!
Any photos?
How's the clarity?

when I took it out of the fridge last night to rack to keg it half slush so the clarity is not great. some chill haze. I will pour a pint tonight (after sitting at ~58 for a day) and snap a pic.

I don't know if the agar did anything. still more research needed on that. tasted pretty good. maybe a little too hoppy but there is a goodly amount of malt to back it up.
Title: Re: Fast turnaround.
Post by: jake amo on January 16, 2012, 09:41:05 AM
I have been doing this a lot as of late. I would recomend US04 and 1968. The 1968 brings up the point of diacetyl rests. I think this is important to bring up when talking about rushing things. 24 or 36 hours at or just below 70f after primary is complete can finish a beer up quickly and quite nice. I try to get all my hefes in the keg before 7 days, i think it is the secret ingredient! I also think IBUs amd hop oil contents play a big role in a beer tasting green. I have found any thing over 50 or so IBUs to require a month to come around.