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Messages - mpietropaoli

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We have decided to add our first round of dry hops at the tail end of fermentation for 5 days after a temp bump, then cold crash for 2-3 days (happening now), then transfer to  purged kegs with co2-flushed hops in muslin bags, then another transfer to serving kegs.  Way too many variables to state whether this is worth it or effective, but it sure can't hurt. 

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Yeast and Fermentation / Re: To hydrate or not
« on: February 12, 2016, 07:04:07 AM »
If there is any question on your pitch rate, I would absolutely say rehydrating makes a difference.  We didn't rehydrate 34/70 on 14 gallons of bo pils and the beer had a pronounced red apple ester, which turned out to be ethyl hexanoate, which is produced by stressed yeast.  So we basically ended up with 14 gallons of alcoholic apple juice that I now maybe use for a brine. 

If you are making an ale and pitching more yeast than you need and are feeling lazy, just pitch the satchet.  I personally have found the risks of doing such outweigh the cost of sanitizing a container and some warm water to rehydrate and take care of your yeast. 

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Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« on: February 12, 2016, 06:56:47 AM »
I was for a long time in the primary-to-packaging, autolysis risk is overblown camp, but then I read this by Pete Wolf.  Short answer: the yeast in the 'cake' isn't really doing the work anyway, its the yeast thats suspended in the wort...and autolysis is a risk, even on a homebrew scale.  Plus the amount of undesirable stuff in the cake, racking may make more sense than we think.  Racking off of or dropping sediment from a conical shouldn't slow down the fermentation all that much if at all according to him. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/beer/comments/2hj15k/beer_and_brewing_science_ama_professional_brewing/ 

What we need is a Picobrewer to do a side-by-side, like with Hochkurz mashing  ;D

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Yeast and Fermentation / Re: WLP565 Belgian Saison I question
« on: February 12, 2016, 06:49:31 AM »
+1. This has been my experience with this yeast as well. Loose foil for the first 3 days of fermentation then throw an airlock on it. Even if a bit finicky, 565 is hands down my favorite saison yeast.

Agreed.  Other saison yeasts produce decent beer, but there is no replacing Dupont.

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General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Minimizing Oxidation During Dry Hopping
« on: February 12, 2016, 06:45:40 AM »
I'm going to say that a lot of this is yeast-strain dependent as well.  S02 production by the yeast will generally have the effect of preserving hop aroma, acid production by the yeast will facilitate acidic hydrolysis of hop glycosides, the byproducts of which are soluble compounds that aren't as volatile as a pure hop oil (myrcene, etc.). 

Could it be that the people that don't like the dry hop with yeast are more sensitive to  geraniol, which is a byproduct of the hydrolysis?   This is a pretty prominent floral aroma that can occur with certain hops and certain yeast strains (maybe Bravo!?).  Who knows what other compounds are created, depending on which hops you are using and what yeast strain. 

I think back to Tasty's response when someone said "well all your hop goodness is blown off if you dry hop when the beer is still off-gassing", which was "well, thats a recipe issue.  Just have a bigger dry hop charge". 


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General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Pressurized Racking/Transfer
« on: February 11, 2016, 10:41:22 AM »
but racking under a bit of pressure seemed to work better for me.

so to do this, I would just need to figure out a way to run a CO2-gas line into the top of the fermenter?  If I were to just remove the airlock/bung from the top of the fermenter, would the concern be that o2 is getting in from the top-down?

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General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Minimizing Oxidation During Dry Hopping
« on: February 11, 2016, 09:35:45 AM »
I feel like I am introducing almost the same level of oxygen pickup risk the second I open the bale and put hops in - not to say that I'm uber scared about it, but how is that significantly different to a purged keg?  Also, putting the hops in the keg, purging, then adding beer gives you the opportunity to flush the hops themselves, which I don't know how I would do if just adding to the conical.

food for thought.

Yeah this is a great point.  We have the extra kegs, so we will probably try the flush/pressurized rack and see how we like the result.  We are also trying the first dry hop-during-end-of-ferment blowoff thing for the first time in a long time too.  So I suspect with both of these, we will like the result. 

The only question I have is, when transferring from the dry-hopping keg to the serving keg, are you using an autosiphon or something to leave the additional sediment behind (in the dry hopping keg)?  Theoretically, there shouldn't be much, but with the yeasts we are using plus with the amount of dry hops, I expect there to be, well...more than I expect.  I suppose you could hacksaw a dip tube on one of them...

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Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Brett pellicle on Saison with added fruit
« on: February 11, 2016, 09:28:09 AM »
I guess I'll have to get new buckets, tubing and racking cane for my clean beers then.
The pellicle is similar to the one I first saw on a beer I fermented with the WLP648 brett. Brux. Trois vrai.
It's strange how resiliant those lifeforms are.

can you post a pic? 

I would characterize the resilience of those bugs as "commonplace" and "expected" on the other hand  ;D

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Yeast and Fermentation / Re: WLP565 Belgian Saison I question
« on: February 11, 2016, 09:24:10 AM »
Some say that 565 is also pressure sensitive, so this one might be better left in the primary with loose foil covering it.  Naturally carbonating is fine as long as the yeast is coaxed to completion first - raising the temp is frequently used to get the yeast to finish up.

This.  565/Dupont is a mutated strain of wine yeast used at Brassierie Dupont.  When saisons first became really popular (right when I started brewing), the yeast was confounding homebrewers all over the place.  "Ferment it in the lower 90's!", and "saisons need 2-3 MONTHS to finish" were common forum-perpetuated homebrewing myths. 

After hearing Denny and Drew hypothesize that it was a wine yeast, I started fermenting with it and piece of sanitized foil over the airlock for the first few days, and haven't had a stall since.  Wine yeasts are also known to ferment in the upper 70's and not produce fusels, which Dupont can also do.  I typically go one week at 68, then another week to ten days at 72-74, but am thinking of bumping the initial ferment/pitch temp up the next time we brew with it. 

Get rid of the pressure in the headspace, and it behaves like any other big-attenuating sacc yeast.

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General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Minimizing Oxidation During Dry Hopping
« on: February 11, 2016, 09:13:09 AM »
I'm glad to see some people on here actually use their senses when drinking their beer...

JK JK, big smile.  lolling, repeat.

I do typically appreciate 'easier is better', but not always.  I think this is an area that is far too often brushed under the rug by homebrewers.  Sanitation, ferment temp, ferment time, oxidation, in that order, are the most common problems I taste when evaluating beers brewed at home.  +1 as well to this problem not 'tasting' like oxidation.  It just tastes like not-fresh hoppy beer.

I think we will either add dry hops to a keg, purge, add beer, rack to new keg for serving.  We do have a conical and the ability to drop the yeast and keep it in the same tank.  So we may continue with the latter option as I think racking to a new co2-purged vessel (even if through the dip tube) may be riskier than just adding hops to the conical after the yeast has been dropped). 

VIPA/NEIPA refers to the juicier, heavier mouthfeel, less-bitter hop-forward beers (typically cloudy in appearance) produced by breweries such as Trillium, Foley, Alchemist, Hill Farmstead, Treehouse, Singlecut and others (but most say pioneered by Alchemist) that focus on a balance of the right fruity (typically stone and tropical fruit) esters AND hop aroma.  Essentially, these amount to IPA's that are more dependent on yeast strain and behavior for the final flavor profile, as opposed to a true West Coast which has more of a focus on pure hop aroma, neutral, non-estery yeast strain, often better clarity, with a firmer, lingering bitterness. 

What do you guys say, should I be writing style guidelines or what?


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Brew an amber and give that away.  Cellar the RIS  ;D

In all seriousness, make as much of this beer as you can.  We made one on our 14-gallon system in 2014, and I gave a ton away, but now wish I had more.  We brewed Jamil's recipe, had 1/3 of it 'naked', 1/3 aged on bourbon oak spirals, and the other 1/3 aged on grand-marnier oak spirals. 

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General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Minimizing Oxidation During Dry Hopping
« on: February 09, 2016, 02:16:28 PM »
Right I mean, its definitely not something I am trying to troubleshoot, like "I am having this issue so I need to fix it".  Other than my non-purge screwup, I haven't necessarily noticed CARDBOARD oxidation flavors, but again, my understanding it that oxidation can rear its head in a number of ways.  I just really think that the beers coming out of this area are totally original, and achieving the flavor (and keeping it) is a complex task. 

So this is really just me trying to improve my process to make the best beer possible (that will last as long as possible) ;D

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General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Pressurized Racking/Transfer
« on: February 09, 2016, 01:07:40 PM »
I transfer from better bottles to kegs through the dip tube with gravity. PRV must remain open or a spunding valve needs to be connected to the gas post. It's a very slow transfer.

Nice, thanks, I will probably just try with the PRV open.  Have you noticed any benefit in flavor stability since doing this?

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General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Minimizing Oxidation During Dry Hopping
« on: February 09, 2016, 01:04:51 PM »

OK, I get that beer can be oxidized by not p[urging.  But is there any evidence, either through research or anecdotally, that dry hopping causes oxidation?

This guy does process engineering at ABI and wrote this as his doctorate thesis. 

http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/34093/Wolfe_thesis.pdf

He says the risk is reduced with pellets as opposed to whole cones, but some oxygen ingress is inevitable with dry hopping (it can be mitigated with purging, flushing the hop material, etc.).  He also had a pretty information-rich Reddit thread, but I don't think he went much into oxidation from dry hopping in it)

Again, anecdotally, Kimmich supposedly has his levels down in (I think) the double-digits per billion, which I have to imagine has some effect on the shelf life of the beer (I have had 8-9 month old Heady and it does change, but it is still excellent).  I also think the yeast in that beer is very good at cleaving glycoside bonds, which makes the beer better over time.  Though thats not verified   :D

Not saying other canning breweries don't achieve the same things with some of their beers, I just haven't tasted them.  So I guess in trying to make a great beer, I am trying to eliminate my process flaws one at a time



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General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Minimizing Oxidation During Dry Hopping
« on: February 09, 2016, 10:22:18 AM »
Pardon my pragmatism...has anyone ever gotten oxidation due to dry hopping?

Carboardy "this-is-oxidation" oxidation?  No. 

However, I did forget to purge a keg one time, 'quick' force-carbed it, and it was basically like a hand grenade went off in the thing in a few weeks.  Acetaldehyde, intermediate ferment compounds, etc.  A great beer became vile quickly. 

I am after ways to keep my beer tasting better, longer.

I have to believe that at some of the flavor stability of a beer like Heady Topper is due to the infinitesimal exposure it gets to oxygen, absence of aroma scalp of a crown, etc.  Granted, it could partially be a recipe issue (my belief is that NE IPA's/VIPAs are more about esters than hop aroma), but I do know that one of the greatest brewers in the world is fanatical about preventing oxidation.  So to the extent I can minimize it, I am going to follow his lead.

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