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Messages - lupulus

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1
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« on: April 23, 2017, 09:35:27 AM »
Thanks.  May be you found IT. Cheers.

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2
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« on: April 23, 2017, 08:57:36 AM »

Yeah, pretty much so.  I'm personally so convinced of it's value that I use it in every batch.
[/quote]

So, if you were to summarize your experience:
Does it help during the mash? If so, how?
Does it help during the boil? If so, how?

A few minor questions...
You mentioned clarity and smoothness, feel free to correct me if I misheard you. @clarity: So, your beers were not clear before BTB? Were you using Whirlfloc or similar).
@smoothness - if you were to use the Meilgaard flavor wheel, does it fit somewhere there?

Thanks in advance.

3
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« on: April 22, 2017, 07:40:48 AM »
A few comments if I may.
First, thanks to the experimenters for taking time to do the testing.
I have using Brewtan B for about 30 batches. Unfortunately in combination with AA and SMB/PMB. It does not hurt. Do not have enough evidence to say it is better.

@Brewtan - Gallotannins (only commenting if it was not mentioned already)
- Gallotannins can be accurately named radical scavengers; and given that if oxygen were to oxidize it would be through free radicals, oxygen scavenger seems ok. There is quite a bit of research on polyphenols as antioxidants, and many of these experiments (not in beer) used tannins as the polyphenol.
- There is not much research on Gallotannins in the mash and taste. Aerts, who has done a few experiments on tannins is the only one I recall, and the results were positive. The postulated mechanism was the antioxidant effect.

@Use of Brewtan
- During the podcast, JF stated that it was to be added 15 min before the end of the boil. The Website states 5-0 min before the end, and 5-0 min is also what has been done in research papers; so I will appreciate if Denny, Joe can provide the rationale/ references for the recommendation in the podcast.
I have been using it 3 min before the end of the boil as recommended in the literature.

@Benefits of Brewtan
- My beer was clear before Brewtan, so I see no effect of Brewtan on clarity.

@Podcast
The podcast came across to me as very positive to Brewtan despite the negative results of the experiment. Yes, confirmation bias was mentioned but there was more focus on the positive anecdotal evidence than on the mixed results. 
It is your podcast, so the editorial angle is certainly your decision how to present a topic. From previous podcasts, it has been my impression that science / data carried more weight than anecdotal evidence; it was not the case this time.
Nonetheless, D&D you are very entertaining and do a great job of presenting information. Thanks for taking the time.
Cheers  ;)


4
All Grain Brewing / Re: Metabisulfite (sulfur dioxide) in beer brewing
« on: April 14, 2017, 05:30:40 PM »
Ok so here was what I sent to Dr. Bamforth:

Dr. Bamforth,

I've read many of your papers concerning the role of Oxygen in the brewing process and I am very interested to know your position on the use of chemical antioxidants, Sodium and Potassium Metabisulfite in particular, in the process of making beer. What is your opinion on the utility of these substances and do you see any negative affects?

Our current SOP is the deoxygenation of strike water through pre-boiling whereupon we add between 20-50 ppm of NaMeta or 20-30 ppm KMeta (depending on the brewer and system). By the time we exit the boil and aerate/oxygenate, sulfite testing strips show low/no residual sulfites.

Concerns on the popular forums and message boards have been raised about the possible connection between metabisulfite and sulfury/"eggy" flavors in finished beer. We have not experienced this and are receiving increased collective experience that echos our own findings.

If you can spare the time to give me your opinion it would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Derek Scott


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Hi Monk,
Thanks for sharing.
Bamforth has told this story at least once in one of the podcasts, either BeerSmith or BrewStrong. These podcasts are nuggets of wisdom :-)

5
All Grain Brewing / Re: Metabisulfite (sulfur dioxide) in beer brewing
« on: April 14, 2017, 05:27:42 PM »
Sorry.  Cannot see the presentation of the usefulness of  smb in brewing in the link provided.  Can you be more specific?

SMB is sodium metabisulfite, and metabisulfite is ~56% sulfur dioxide.  The usefulness of sulfur dioxide in beer brewing is as an antioxidant.  Given the pH range we work within, we're primarily preventing oxidation via indirect method of binding the precursors (bisulfite ions), but to a smaller extent the direct binding of oxygen (sulfite ions).

Hopefully I've understood your question correctly.  I'm not a chemist, or engineer, just a plain old homebrewer working with some information that another member here kindly provided.  If you feel I've misunderstood and misrepresented some information, please let me know and I'll look into it more.  My novice understanding of the chemical interactions of sulfur dioxide in solutions of varying pH is just that, novice.  I also respect your input and would gladly accept criticism from you.

I have no criticism. What you described above appears to be correct, and I just say appears because I have not read them :-); they are all wine related, right? I am sure there is something to be learned from the wine references, but given the pH differences, I am not sure the same mechanisms apply to beer. Maybe they do. My request was because when I click on the link provided there was nothing as to the usefulness of sulfites in beer brewing. If you need some references, Guido 2016, Ilett 1995 and Kaneda 1991 are good references. All the best :-)

6
All Grain Brewing / Re: Metabisulfite (sulfur dioxide) in beer brewing
« on: April 14, 2017, 04:01:44 PM »
Sorry.  Cannot see the presentation of the usefulness of  smb in brewing in the link provided.  Can you be more specific?

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7
All Grain Brewing / Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« on: March 02, 2017, 07:58:29 PM »
Augustine is awesome except for bocks.

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2352?


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Yep. Also the organic in cans L17

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8
All Grain Brewing / Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« on: March 02, 2017, 06:20:40 PM »
Augustine is awesome except for bocks.

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9
 Let's keep in mind that the effort  required to do this is minimal, a couple of phone calls, and there is no extra cost for the member that does not want to use the benefit. The survey and its tabulation will take more time.

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10
I don't know if a survey would accurately capture interest. I'm not implying that many members are dumb, but these articles are very technical. A sample article would be needed so respondents can make an informed choice. If no sample is given the question might as well be "do you want more brewing related article?"
As a draft
Would you value the possibility of having a discounted / student membership to the Master Brewers Association $42 annually (vs $142 for pro brewers). See www.mbaa.com for benefits.

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11
Maybe with Survey Monkey??
+1

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12
I should also note that most scholarly journals are a bit more *technical* than some of the publications mentioned above, which are really more like trade publications or newsletters in terms of their tone, content, and review process. For example, Brauwelt International recently published a piece called "Israel Microbrewery received s***storm for selling beer from West Bank." Not the sort of thing you'd find in Nature or The Lancet.


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I do not disagree but there is still quite a bit of original research.  Dissertations and thesis from Europe brewing schools are mostly published in Brauwelt. MBAA also has interesting studies. The treasure is the access to old numbers electronically. 

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13
The only concern for the journal would be pro-brewer push back but it is not likely.
I can do the phone calls on behalf of the AHA if the AHA gives me permission.

This is a great idea to a geek like me, but I'm not sure that a majority of the general membership would find it valuable. When I was completing my second Masters degree a few years ago, I loved my access to various journals through the University's library. If AHA could get similar access, I would love it. If you have insight as to how libraries and allied organizations get access, your Governing Committee would like to hear it. However, the bottom line is that is limited funding available to things that might have limited appeal to the membership as a whole.

I am sorry I was not more clear Martin.
There are two things the AHA can do in this regard.
1. Negotiate student subscription rates with journals and associations. For example, student membership to the MBAA is $42 for students vs $142 for pro brewers. This subscription comes with access to their journal and other benefits. Brauwelt international costs Euro 89 for students, and 169 for pros.
The cost to the AHA for this, is practically zero: A couple of phone calls one time.  Indeed, not many homebrewers would use the benefit but some will, and will benefit greatly from these subscriptions.
2. Interlibrary loan and copy services. I completely understand that this is not a realistic expectation as it would require a budget and as Martin and others mentioned, not benefit most of dues-paying AHA members.
So, again, new and upcoming AHA members, can you please discuss it and if you agree, assign a staff member to get the negotiation done.
Cheers,



14
well, I don't know about the bylaws and what not - but I'm the ViceChairman of the GC.

The way the GC usually works is we're a sounding board for the plans the AHA is making. For instance, the annual plan is passed by us to get a looksee and sniff. We're also a dedicated volunteer crew that gives extra hands for things like survey analysis, etc.

In the case of the HBC name, that got passed by us as "we're thinking about a name change. What do you think?"

Now, efforts do get introduced by the GC - the insurance program is a great example of that - that's was Crispy and his work to keep driving. For ythe journal idea, it could be introduced by a GC member, but it would be ultimately up to the AHA to figure out how to budget and implement it if it fits into their annual plan. (We would have to convince them that it would be worth the effort)
Thanks Drew for taking time to respond. Indeed it makes sense that for new ideas, the board can only make recommendations and then the AHA will need to allocate resources, human and monetary, to implement them.
At least for what I suggested, Denny is over estimating what it can take.  It is just a phone call to the right person at the journal. You are offering them an additional revenue stream at zero cost to them and a few of us who are interested gain access at the student rate (a clear win-win). The only concern for the journal would be pro-brewer push back but it is not likely.
I can do the phone calls on behalf of the AHA if the AHA gives me permission.

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15
Fellow homebrewers,
I started this thread not to promote any candidates but to help coordinate the raising of issues/ topics/ actions that can make our hobby better.

You may have seen by now that for good or bad, I am very science-oriented. Cannot help it :-)

What can help me personally and I am sure it would help many other homebrewers is for the GC to facilitate our access to research publications on brewing.
Ideally of course, would be free access to a given journal for AHA members, but more realistically, I think a student membership for AHA members (that are not pro brewers) can be negotiated with most journals.
Examples are :
MBAA technical quarterly
Brauwelt international

There you go.. What do you fellow homebrewers wish to see done that is not part of the commitments of current candidates?

I'm not sure you understand the role of the Governing Committee. While you have a cool idea, it's outside the scope of what we do.
Where is the scope of what you (GC) do defined, Denny?

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The bylaws are downloadable on this page.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/membership/aha-governing-committee/
Thanks so much!
After reading, there is nothing in the bylaws that remotely suggests what Denny is stating above.
So again, why exactly the AHA cannot negotiate a discounted access to brewing publications on behalf of homebrewers?

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