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Messages - Kinetic

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1
All Grain Brewing / Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« on: July 27, 2014, 08:47:46 PM »
Even IF they did, the primary fermentation would take care of it according to Bamforth.  His advice for a beer that has been aged for a long time and has clear signs of oxidation like a barleywine that sat in a secondary for a year or more is to pitch some active yeast to clean up the oxidized compounds. 

This is something a primary fermentation can easily do for a small starter that might have been oxidized.  Keep in mind, scientific observation says it isn't likely to happen with a non-hopped beer that has been aged a lot longer than a starter.  I whiff all of my starters and none of them have ever smelled like sherry or card board.  I don't bother tasting them and wouldn't expect them to taste like a good beer. 

Since you typically make large starters, it makes sense to chill and decant.  However, it doesn't make sense to claim all starters are oxidized.  Active yeast consume whatever oxygen is available to them.  The starter may not taste or smell good, but it doesn't matter.  Pitching a reasonably sized complete starter fermented at a reasonable temperature isn't responsible for a bad beer.

But if the starter is already oxidized, there is no more oxygen to be scavenged during fermentation and the damage has been done.  Obviously, I haven't tasted every starter I or every other homebrewer has done.  But the ones I've tasted have all tasted oxidized to me.  That's why I recommend the safe course of action.  And whether it's oxidation or something else, as you mention, starters taste bad.  I don't want that in my beer.

Sorry but, you've completely ignored scientific observation from verified legends in Brewing Science and replaced it with superstition.  The primary fermentation will consume and convert compounds that have allegedly been oxidized in the starter that aren't even likely to have been oxidized in the first place.  The yeast in the starter will consume most or all of the oxygen available.           

Using the "it doesn't taste good in it's current concentration, so I refuse to put it in my beer" mantra makes no sense.  Mix up a tsp of gypsum and drink it with a glass of water.  Does it taste good?  No, but you don't hesitate to put it in your batch of beer. 

I can understand why you want to argue this topic.  You are quite sure your practice is THE way to make beer.  You have likely made thousands of posts on the topic in a similar manner and really hate to admit being wrong in prolific retrospect.  Most of the time you give very solid advice based on plenty of brewing experience and a very good understanding of how to brew. 

However, this is a time where you are more concerned about protecting your reputation than actually accepting something science has determined which contradicts your personal experience.   

Some people take your advice without questioning it.  Others do some research and try something contrary to your advice and determine there is more than one way to make a tasty beer. 

Very good beer can be made with either practice.  Use whatever method makes sense to you and produces the results you desire.  Like I said earlier, I use both methods.  I can't say one is significantly better than the other in any regard beyond timing and waste.   

YMMV

2
All Grain Brewing / Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« on: July 27, 2014, 07:30:37 PM »
Unhopped beers seldom develop an oxidized flavor

     

My starters have.

Even IF they did, the primary fermentation would take care of it according to Bamforth.  His advice for a beer that has been aged for a long time and has clear signs of oxidation like a barleywine that sat in a secondary for a year or more is to pitch some active yeast to clean up the oxidized compounds. 

This is something a primary fermentation can easily do for a small starter that might have been oxidized.  Keep in mind, scientific observation says it isn't likely to happen with a non-hopped beer that has been aged a lot longer than a starter.  I whiff all of my starters and none of them have ever smelled like sherry or card board.  I don't bother tasting them and wouldn't expect them to taste like a good beer. 

Since you typically make large starters, it makes sense to chill and decant.  However, it doesn't make sense to claim all starters are oxidized.  Active yeast consume whatever oxygen is available to them.  The starter may not taste or smell good, but it doesn't matter.  Pitching a reasonably sized complete starter fermented at a reasonable temperature isn't responsible for a bad beer. 

3
At 73°F ambient, a swamp cooler will hang out somewhere around 70°F without using any ice. With a fan and a towel or t-shirt over the fermenter, you shouldn't have any trouble maintaining mid-60s temps without any fluctuation.

Why don't you like Chico? 

4
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Roeselare
« on: July 27, 2014, 06:27:17 PM »
There's a burger chain called Umami Burger.  I need to go there.  It has to be good.

I really want to use the stinky cheese aged hops for the next sour.  Has anyone here used them?  I fully intended to use them last time, but a little voice inside my head said "no, not this time".

5
All Grain Brewing / Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« on: July 27, 2014, 06:15:18 PM »
It's worth noting the book Yeast suggests chilling and decanting when the starter is larger than 5% of the volume of the wort.  For a 5.5gal batch, this would be anything larger than a 1L starter. 

Of course, these are guide lines and not rules.  My general practice is nothing larger than 1.5L in a 5.5gal-6.0gal batch.  I've broken my own rule a few times with a 2L starter dumped into the wort.  They were big Belgians and honestly made very good beers that had no oxidation flavors or aromas.

I'm definitely not saying there is anything wrong with chilling and decanting.  I do it whenever it is convenient. 

6
All Grain Brewing / Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« on: July 27, 2014, 05:08:20 PM »
Unhopped beers seldom develop an oxidized flavor, which suggests a likely role for the iso-alpha acids as precursors of staling compounds (Hashimoto et al., 1979).  Hashimoto is an authority on the subject.

I don't add hops to my starter.   

     

7
It sounds like you pitched enough yeast unless the beer is highly boozy.  Nothing left to do except wait and see.  Does the beer make any foam at all when you pour it?   

8
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Roeselare
« on: July 27, 2014, 02:14:26 PM »
That's the safest move for your first wild beer and it's what most home brewers do.  I'm leaving it on the cake for 9 months next time to see if it increases umami-ness.         

9
The difference between 73F and 80F is only 0.07 volumes of CO2.  You added enough sugar for 2.1-2.2 volumes of CO2.  Sometimes the yeast is "worn out" after fermentation and it takes longer than usual to carb or may not carb to the desired level.  This can happen if you didn't pitch enough yeast.

What was the OG and FG of the beer?  Did you rehydrate your S-O5?   

10
All Grain Brewing / Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« on: July 27, 2014, 12:50:52 PM »
Pitching the entire 1.6L starter won't ruin your hop flavors or make your beer taste bad.  Sometimes I chill and decant.  Sometimes I pitch the whole starter.  Muted hop flavors or off flavors have not been a problem when I pitch the whole starter. 

Yes, oxygen exposure can be detrimental to your beer.  However, if transferring to a non-purged secondary for dry hopping totally ruins hop flavor and aroma, then it wouldn't have been possible for me to make plenty of beers with big hop flavor and aroma.  My hoppy beers probably wouldn't age well, but who wants to age an IPA?  The batch is gone in less than two months.       

11
All Grain Brewing / Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« on: July 26, 2014, 07:52:36 PM »
I see you made the same thread elsewhere.  The Caramel Police, Oxygen Gestapo and the Chill and Decant Enforcement Agency predictably showed up.  You can disregard their comments.   

12
Made a rose hip and hibiscus saison with Triskel hops recently.  Got a big whiff of the finished primary today while adding some Triskel dry hops.  It had a unique and pleasant aroma.  Sort of like a blend of jasmine tea and roses, but not too perfumey.  Looking forward to drinking this one.

13
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Roeselare
« on: July 26, 2014, 06:14:34 PM »
I'm not a bug pro, but brett will eat dead sacc.  The last Flanders I made where I left everything in the primary for six months did have a little autolysis flavor, but it was a good umami flavor like marmite and it wasn't overpowering.  I suppose the flavor could intensify over longer periods of time and perhaps become unpleasant depending on your taste.  I had a Belgian sour from Alvinne a few months ago that had a much heavier autolysis flavor than my beer and I still thought it tasted good.




14
All Grain Brewing / Re: Bland IPA w/ lots of late hops?!?
« on: July 26, 2014, 12:36:58 PM »
Your hop schedule should produce plenty of mango/pineapple flavor and aroma from Citra.  Hop stands are nice, but it isn't required for good flavor and aroma.

My guess is the problem is related to water content and mash pH.  Store bought spring water is a crap shoot.  You will have better consistency with RO water and mineral additions. It's also possible your hops aren't the best examples of Citra due to age, storage conditions or crop variance.

15
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Roeselare
« on: July 25, 2014, 07:54:28 PM »
The sacc, brett, lacto, pedio balance will be significantly different from the initial pitch because they reproduce and die at different rates.  Some people report good or even subjectively better results with the second generation pitch.  I haven't tried a second generation pitch and don't plan on trying it.  I'm happy with the first pitch results.

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