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Messages - Robert

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Once enzymes are denatured,  there's no bringing them back from the dead, so enzymes from malt won't come into play.   And the enzymes in hops under discussion work at normal dry hopping temperatures,  as I understand it.  Moreover,  they are present in very small mall quantities, so they work their effects on a timescale of at least days, to weeks, not minutes.   So as I understand it,  the whirlpool doesn't contribute to these effects, just dry hopping.   

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Great article. I've been telling the brewers who work under many that "more dry hops"isn't necessarily a "good thing". The "less than 8 grams per liter" is a great reference point. I'm to make that a new house rule.

8 grams/liter is 1.07 oz/gallon in old money. I often go 4 or 5 oz dry hops in an 5 gallon batch. Last year I was trying to free up freezer space, and dumped a bunch into a batch, and it turned out rough and astringent.
The classic British rule for cask ales is 2 oz to a firkin, which is only 1.38g/L, less than 1 oz/5 US gallons.  It would be interesting if some brewers who customarily dry hop at higher rates tried this rate and reported how it compares.  If more is not necessarily more, is there some minimum rate which is sufficient and beyond which there are diminishing returns, even below 8g/L? 

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3
 Very good article.  I found the first two topics shed light on something:  I've noticed in reading the British beer blogs a common complaint about American styles,  in particular NEIPA, that these beers are exceptionally bitter and astringent, but lacking in hop flavor and aroma.  Just put all the hops in at the start of the boil, the  Brits seem to say, so we'll get lots of hoppiness without bitterness.   Opposite of the assumptions behind NEIPA.   But it makes sense now in light of this evidence of bitterness from dry hopping, especially if the bitterness from dry hopping is of a different character; and maybe the Brits are conditioned  to identify (referring to the first topic in the article) different compounds, those with lower saturation limits, as "hoppy" than some Americans do.  (So if hop creep makes all their cans of NEIPA explode, they probably won't miss it.  Anyway, they understood and utilized hop creep long ago.) 

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Manometer
« on: January 19, 2019, 06:20:45 PM »
Joe, was the bed pulled away with liquid above it, or did you see this only after it was completely drained?  I wouldn't worry about how the spent grain settles after it's drained, only if there's channeling during the run.  OTOH, I firmly believe in having the draw off at the center no matter what; you can't do better to ensure even drainage as across the bed. If possible do it.

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Diacetyl Rest
« on: January 18, 2019, 11:39:13 PM »
If what you're doing works, I'd say keep doing it.  But in general, fermentation schedules are planned around either a rising or steady temperature  rather than lowering it in the middle.  The concern is that lowering the temperature prematurely will shut down the yeast to some degree, and I'm not sure what it would be intended to do.   If you want a flavor profile characteristic of either warm or cool (for the strain) fermentation,  that is, fruitier or cleaner, the early stages are where that will be influenced.   But again, it's all about what works for you.  You could try a batch starting at the lowest temperature you find acceptable and let the temperature rise to 68° after the 2/3 of the way, or ~50% AA, I've mentioned, and see if it's any different,  or more or less convenient.  If nothing else, it's less complicated.

On a side note, the genomic research has shown 029 is an English yeast in the Whitbread B family.  In that context, 30 hours to 50% sounds about right.  Probably for most ale yeast.  But I'm not sure what conditions they used to determine that. (If fermentation data for a given strain don't include fermentation temperature I'd default to assuming they use the high end,  maybe 68°, so that the analyses of fermentation products are worst case values.)

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Diacetyl Rest
« on: January 18, 2019, 10:55:38 PM »


FWIW, on my Kolsch recipe, I start ferment at 60* for 2 days then lower to 55* until I get about 10 points away from FG. Then I let the temp free rise to 68*, set temp controller, where it will finish out and FG is steady for 3 days. Cold crash at 35* and let it sit at that temp for at least 10-14 days. I like the slight fruity taste I get from 68* Just my method and it works for me.

If you're raising the temperature to 68°F at that late point, the yeast are no longer producing flavor compounds but reducing them, so that's not where you're getting fruitiness.  If 60°F is on the warm end for your yeast, that critical first two days is probably giving you the fruit.  But as you say the whole program gets the result you like, so that's what  counts.

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Container for Holding Grain
« on: January 18, 2019, 09:01:15 PM »
Another vote for 5 gal buckets with gamma lids.

Another vote here for the buckets with gamma lids. cheap and easy!!
+1. Hold about 20#.   For specialty malt in small amounts I like 2 qt Mason jars.

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Diacetyl Rest
« on: January 18, 2019, 05:15:45 PM »
Hey, that's my pipeline exactly. Ale or lager. Temperature rise,  cold condition, two months from grain to glass,  consistency and predictability.

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Diacetyl Rest
« on: January 18, 2019, 04:55:50 PM »
RC makes a good point though.   Even if diacetyl is not a problem, raising the temperature will hasten things along if you want to turn around fermenters.  This is usually my reason for a temperature rise, as I've never really had a diacetyl problem either, and after the first 2/3 of attenuation there's no adverse effect. Just keeps the pipeline moving.

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Diacetyl Rest
« on: January 18, 2019, 01:36:24 PM »
All good answers indeed.


Robert - your answer makes perfect sense.  However, I don’t have the luxury of monitoring my fermentation temperature.  So, my question to you is: how are you monitoring this temperature; what device are you using and does it record?



I appreciate the help!  Great information!  Thank you!!
I did at one time have a fermenter equipped with a thermowell.  Since I now ferment in a 10 gallon corny I'm back to an old fashioned, stick on liquid crystal "fermometer."  It's accurate enough to see temperature trends from observation to observation,  and it records the way everything in my brewery does.  Data passes through me to a notebook.

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Diacetyl Rest
« on: January 18, 2019, 03:30:56 AM »
There's a lot of literature indicating that the production of flavor compounds is complete by the time the fermentation is 2/3 complete   So that initial period  is where you want to be fermenting at a temperature chosen to optimize your flavor profile.   We know that raising the temperature reinvigorates the yeast to reduce compounds we don't want.   So based on this, anywhere after 2/3 of the way to FG (usually, that is, ~50% AA) temperature can be raised.  This is basically the modern "Narziß" lager fermentation program.  Your program is another traditional practice in lager brewing.  (White and Zainasheff summarize all this; the standard textbooks do address temperature cycles.)  But it's true there's no one single right way.  It is indeed dependent on the yeast and the individual fermentation, as well as what is convenient given your means of temperature monitoring and control.   My practice is this, for ales and lagers.  While I do track attenuation,  my real clue is:  when, at the same ambient temperature, the temperature in the ferment has peaked and starts to drop -- that is, the yeast are no longer generating as much heat -- I take it as a sure indication of transition from the primary to the secondary phase.   At this point I allow a free rise to my chosen final ambient temperature.   Listen to the yeast.  When they're having trouble keeping themselves warm, turn up the thermostat. Works well for me because I monitor fermentation temperature, but control ambient in the chamber.

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Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Fermentation
« on: January 18, 2019, 02:17:51 AM »
It is much tidier than fermenting a 6.5 gallon batch in a 3 gallon fermenter.  ;)   

Seriously, it is advantageous to use a fermenter  considerably larger than batch size; you shouldn't need a blow off.  I ferment 6 gallon batches in a 10 gallon fermenter.

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Manometer
« on: January 17, 2019, 11:35:36 PM »


Handling my thirst is like trying to catch a bullet with a pair of pliers in the dark! Ha! Too funny!
Never heard of little kings but my Dad used to drink Genesee cream ale when I was a young man. Dang. Now I might have to brew a cream ale. I'm using WLP029 for it though.

I used to drink Genesee in my misspent youth, it was the go to beverage around here.  Little Kings was from Cincinnati, IIRC, never had one.  But ah, the memories around Genny Cream.... 

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Kegging and Bottling / Re: Alternative to Picnic Tap?
« on: January 17, 2019, 10:33:47 PM »




Okay, I've got a keezer and don't need this setup.  BUT I WANT THAT SHINY TAP HANDLE!  Tommy, source please!
I’ve successfully lobbied the Alabama and Mississippi legislatures to ban use of these in home taprooms other than mine. But, for you...

https://www.chicompany.net/beer-store/beer-dispensing-equipment/tap-handles/chrome-tap-handle

PS. Don’t drop it on your foot.  It’s heavy.
Very pretty handle on my pretty ugly keezer.  Kind of like a Rolls hood ornament on a Yugo!  (In defense of my keezer, it was a spur of the moment build, conceived, materials sourced,  and executed in one afternoon, when, like the OP, I decided I wanted something better than a picnic tap.  And at least I am secure in the knowledge that it's much, much prettier on the inside.  Not bigger, just prettier.)  Thanks, Tommy.  :)

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Manometer
« on: January 17, 2019, 04:58:52 PM »
I had a similar thought on the "shotgun" approach in this case.   You've improved flow, you've got a new mill, everything you've done is bound to be an improvement.   So if the next brew goes well, proceed with all the modifications on the "ain't broke, don't fix it" principle.   Of there's still something suboptimal, then troubleshoot systematically.

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