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Messages - Craft Meister

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1
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 28, 2019, 08:12:11 PM »
I tapped a sample tonight from a corny keg marked “iodophor 1/12/19, transferred to this keg 2/17/19.”
The color is pale yellow if not lighter.  Almost no color.
I will see if my local store has test strips this weekend, but the color tells me that it’s not a viable solution.

Interesting.  Sounds like there’s a very small amount of Iodophor still present, but you will need to verify the concentration with a test strip to be sure.  I’ll be interested to see how this tests out when you can measure.

2
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 27, 2019, 08:01:07 PM »
The main reason we stress the air drying aspect for using the BTF Iodophor solution is that those instructions are stated specifically on our label.  With EPA regulated products, instructions, methods, and applications are strictly adhered to, especially for commercial use.


Air Dry?? I had to go into the brewery and take my bottle off the shelf and read the instructions, but it does say that. The REALLY troubling thing is: "Why did EPA require this?" or  "Why did National Chemicals agree to this requirement?"

I'm afraid that you've just opened a can of worms, but I'm still not about to begin air drying a piece of equipment and have it pick up mold spores. As far as I'm concerned, air drying would bring iodophor back to being no better than an acid-based sanitizer...ineffective against mold spores.

There is a good reason for indicating air drying.  Since the initial application of BTF Iodophor was a third sink sanitizer for sanitizing bar glassware, food code and sanitary guidelines need to apply for standard three compartment sink ware washing.  Here is a document from the ServSafe safe food handling program:

https://www.servsafe.com/ServSafe/media/ServSafe/Documents/poster_12.pdf

Dishes, utensils, glasses, etc. that are sanitized in a third sink must be air dried (not towel dried), inverted on a rack before using again or before storage.  The instructions on BTF Iodophor to air dry before use reinforce the application of the product as a bar and restaurant third sink sanitizer.

For the use of BTF Iodophor as a sanitizer for home brewing, I don’t feel it is required to completely air dry equipment for brewing, such as kegs or carboys, etc.  Shaking off or draining out as much of the end use solution as possible will suffice.  See the quote from Dr. Landman in the article I linked earlier:

https://www.bayareamashers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Iodophor.pdf

“”NO RINSE” is a phrase that is frequently used in conjunction with iodophor. Manufacturers of Iodophor claim that, when used in a solution of 12.5 ppm, there is no need to rinse to solution from items. They say that the item should be merely air dried. Dr. Landman opined that air drying wasn’t really necessary.”


3
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 27, 2019, 07:38:26 PM »
Wow.  Five pages, an expert, a lot of discussion, but not a clear answer to my original question, unless I missed it.  If I measure the proper amount of iodophor into a five gallon keg, seal it, then push it out with CO2 into another keg, there will be no air drying involved.  I'm OK with having a small amount of dilute liquid under the dip tube and I feel that that first corny keg is sanitized and ready to fill with beer.
Now what if I leave the other keg full of sanitizer until the next time I have beer ready to keg?  It's in the dark without oxygen in the head space.  It may be a couple of weeks before I push out the solution with CO2 into another keg.
From what I have read here, the answer is that this probably works, but since it is so cheap, why am I doing it?  Because I have lots of kegs and it's nice to clean and sanitize them at one time.
This weekend I think I will pull out a sample from a keg with three week old iodophor and check for amber color.  Will that be as definitive as a test strip?

I apologize for not providing a clear answer to the original post on this thread.

Your method will work just fine, and will achieve the desired outcomes of clean and sanitized kegs in an efficient manner.  The fact that the kegs are pressurized, in the dark, and clean of organic material will ensure that the BTF Iodophor solution is viable for the job.  As long as the kegs you sanitize and purge in this fashion remain pressure rated, they will stay in a sanitized state until use.  Exposure to outside air through a. Leak would compromise this. 

I would welcome your input regarding a test of the solution in storage with a test paper at the end of the process, but if kept pressurized and sealed, in the dark, I would imagine this solution would be viable for quite a while - it’s just difficult to give you an exact length of time.

In addition, small amounts of properly measured, 12.5 PPM BTF Iodophor, such as barely a tablespoon, will dilute out into such extremely small concentrations in your finished beer that it will be undetectable.  I refer again to the PDF I linked in an earlier post for a good experiment:

https://www.bayareamashers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Iodophor.pdf

I sincerely hope this helps and please contact me if there are unanswered questions.

4
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 25, 2019, 09:48:14 PM »
The main reason we stress the air drying aspect for using the BTF Iodophor solution is that those instructions are stated specifically on our label.  With EPA regulated products, instructions, methods, and applications are strictly adhered to, especially for commercial use.

However, in real-world applications, air drying may not always be necessary.  The best reason for air drying is to eliminate the opportunity for small amounts of Iodine to get into your beverage.  The chances, when PROPERLY MEASURING an Iodophor solution of flavor impacts from residual Iodine, are slim to nil.

Here is an external link to a great document from an interview with Dr. Landman on BTF Iodophor:

https://www.bayareamashers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Iodophor.pdf


5
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 22, 2019, 07:58:49 PM »
That sounds just like the popular "recipe" for using bleach with sodium hypochlorite diluted to 80 ppm,  where it is said to be essential to acidify to pH 5.0 in order that the chlorine will be almost entirely in the form of hypclorous acid, that being the active killer.   These halogens all behave alike, it seems.

So, does this mean we should be checking the ph of our solution,  or does the color indicator have our backs?

I don't think it's necessary to measure the pH of your water or Iodophor solution.  It's probably a better idea to understand the pH of your tap water or source of water for mixing the solution as I think it's very rare to have a municipal water source coming out at a pH higher than 8.5-9.  Using the regular guides of solution color and Iodine test strips will be an effective measuring tool, along with proper measurement of the BTF Iodophor concentrate.

6
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 22, 2019, 07:14:52 PM »

Other things that will degrade the solution:

-Residual alkaline detergents.  The Iodine complex and the Iodophor concentrate are acidic solutions.  Mixing into any water that has residual alkaline detergent will neutralize the solution.  I've run into people that have had issues running Iodophor through plate/counterflow chillers where there was residual alkaline detergent remaining in the system and it neutralizes the Iodophor solution.


Interesting. So if alkaline cleaners tend to neutralize iodophor solutions, it therefore suggests that highly alkaline water supplies might take a bit more of the concentrate than low alkalinity water such as rainwater, RO, or distilled? This also suggests that we can neutralize excess alkalinity in our water supply in order to make our iodophor solutions more effective.

If that's the case, the Water Acidification calculator in Bru'n Water does make it easier to figure out what a brewer's acid dose needs to be in order to neutralize most or all the water supply's alkalinity.

Hey Marty, I have some information back from Dr. Landman for you on this topic regarding pH for mixing Iodophor solutions:

"Absolutely. pH 8.5-9 is considered aggressive toward iodophors and requires a higher dose of concentrate to achieve a 12.5-25ppm solution. Above pH 9, the water needs to be treated with a weak acid (typically citric acid) to buffer the diluent back to the 7-8 range before dosing with the iodine concentrate.

... the high pH on the alkaline side prevents the iodine atom from releasing off the organic carrier molecule. It is the release of the free iodine atom that forms the active form of iodine that kills bacteria, etc. It is called hypoiodous acid ... that and elemental iodine are bactericidal. Elemental iodine is hard to get into solution ... hard to dissolve. The hypoiodous acid dissolves easily into water.
The older, original dairy iodophors were formulated with a high percent of some acid ... phosphoric acid, Hydroxyacetic acid, etc.  ... to keep the pH low and help release the iodine."

Hope this helps!

7
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 21, 2019, 02:09:59 AM »
“Typically the Iodine mixed into solution will gas back into the atmosphere in roughly 12-24 hours, turning back to clear water.”

How should this ‘water’ be disposed of after the 12-24 hr off gassing?  I don’t dare pour an Iodophor solution down the drain lest it kill my biological balance in my septic system but can this ‘water’ be poured into a septic system?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Valid concern, however, once it is clear water it’s just that - water.  The Iodine has returned to gas in the atmosphere and you are clear to dump that water into your septic.  The worst thing you could do is dump a bottle of Iodophor concentrate into your septic, that would be bad.



Valid concern, however, once it is clear water it’s just that - water.  The Iodine has returned to gas in the atmosphere

Really just water?  Surely there are other ingredients that remain?  These would affect any possible use of the water other than dumping it down the drain, right?

For the purposes of disposing of spent solution, I would consider it just water (free of Iodine).  I wouldn’t personally use it for anything else other than dumping it down the drain.  This is why I make very small volumes of solution at a time - 1 tsp of concentrate for 1.5 gallons of water will do the trick for just about anything for home brewing related.

8
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 21, 2019, 02:06:22 AM »

Other things that will degrade the solution:

-Residual alkaline detergents.  The Iodine complex and the Iodophor concentrate are acidic solutions.  Mixing into any water that has residual alkaline detergent will neutralize the solution.  I've run into people that have had issues running Iodophor through plate/counterflow chillers where there was residual alkaline detergent remaining in the system and it neutralizes the Iodophor solution.


Interesting. So if alkaline cleaners tend to neutralize iodophor solutions, it therefore suggests that highly alkaline water supplies might take a bit more of the concentrate than low alkalinity water such as rainwater, RO, or distilled? This also suggests that we can neutralize excess alkalinity in our water supply in order to make our iodophor solutions more effective.

If that's the case, the Water Acidification calculator in Bru'n Water does make it easier to figure out what a brewer's acid dose needs to be in order to neutralize most or all the water supply's alkalinity.

Marty, this is an excellent question.  I will dig into specific water pH thresholds where Iodophor solutions become difficult to maintain.  We did develop the product in Winona, MN, which has tremendously hard water right on the Mississippi River - however hardness and pH are slightly different discussions.  I recall a client that had municipal water coming out at a pH of 9 that had difficulty mixing Iodophor solutions.

With an RO system at home myself, I usually use my RO water for small batches of Iodophor solutions when I brew. 

I will run this up the chain to Dr. Landman, the developer of the product, for his input and post back with a more specific answer.

9
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 21, 2019, 02:01:25 AM »
Is Craftmeister Oxygen Brewery Wash considered alkaline?

I didn’t notice if you addressed spraying an Iodophor solution onto a surface.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, Craft Meister Oxygen Brewery Wash is alkaline in solution.  In addition to the sodium percarbonate (the oxygen release chemistry), we blend in sodium metasilicate, a non-caustic alkaline agent, into the powder.  The alkaline pH promotes the break down of proteins and organic materials.

Spraying an Iodophor solution for spot sanitizing is effective, just make completely sure you hit every surface you are sanitizing.  I've heard of cellar employees at breweries keeping spray bottles of Iodophor in a holster, ready for action!

I stand corrected and will refrain from further speculation.

It is confusing, a bit, on our part to have two types of cleaners.  Both the Oxygen and the Alkaline Brewery Wash have an alkaline pH in solution, the difference is the Oxygen wash has sodium percarbonate for the “oxi clean” effect and the Alkaline Wash doesn’t.  The advantage to the Alakline Wash is that without percarbonate, Alkaline Wash can be used in cold water, whereas hot water is required to dissolve and activate percarbonate.

10
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 21, 2019, 01:56:07 AM »
“Typically the Iodine mixed into solution will gas back into the atmosphere in roughly 12-24 hours, turning back to clear water.”

How should this ‘water’ be disposed of after the 12-24 hr off gassing?  I don’t dare pour an Iodophor solution down the drain lest it kill my biological balance in my septic system but can this ‘water’ be poured into a septic system?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Valid concern, however, once it is clear water it’s just that - water.  The Iodine has returned to gas in the atmosphere and you are clear to dump that water into your septic.  The worst thing you could do is dump a bottle of Iodophor concentrate into your septic, that would be bad. 

11
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 19, 2019, 10:26:22 PM »
Is Craftmeister Oxygen Brewery Wash considered alkaline?

I didn’t notice if you addressed spraying an Iodophor solution onto a surface.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, Craft Meister Oxygen Brewery Wash is alkaline in solution.  In addition to the sodium percarbonate (the oxygen release chemistry), we blend in sodium metasilicate, a non-caustic alkaline agent, into the powder.  The alkaline pH promotes the break down of proteins and organic materials.

Spraying an Iodophor solution for spot sanitizing is effective, just make completely sure you hit every surface you are sanitizing.  I've heard of cellar employees at breweries keeping spray bottles of Iodophor in a holster, ready for action!

12
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 19, 2019, 10:22:49 PM »
I think you've mentioned to me before that protein contaminants will degrade mixed iodophor.....basically if you put stuff in that hasn't been cleaned first.  Am I remembering correctly?

Denny, you are correct.  Residual organic material does deactivate the solution, so always clean appropriately, rinse, then sanitize.

13
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 19, 2019, 09:55:12 PM »
And while we have you, I have another question.   Is full immersion of a piece of equipment in iodophor for two minutes necessary, or is the surfactant able to maintain sufficient contact over sufficient time to sanitize an item that is dipped or sprayed and allowed to drain?

My typical procedure, say, for a carboy is to fill about 1-2 gallons of Iodophor solution into the carboy, swirl to contact everything for about 30 seconds, dump the solution, then place on a rack to drip dry.  The time spent drying contributes to the "wet time" contact.

Initially, the product was designed as a 3rd sink sanitizer for beer glasses.  BTF stands for Bartender's Friend.  In a 3rd sink, you would dunk the glass, immerse for up to 2 minutes, then place on a rack to dry.  You can treat your brewing gear and parts the same way as well.

14
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 19, 2019, 09:51:43 PM »
So the most basic question on this thread seems to be, how long will iodophor solution that has been made up retain its effectiveness if stored sealed up so that iodine won't evaporate (except into minimal head space?)  Does it degrade by some process other than evaporation of the iodine?

The first thing to consider is that Iodine is naturally a gas, like other halogens such as Chlorine.  Their natural tendency is to be a gas.  Iodophor is made from an Iodine complex that creates a concentrated, liquid, soluble form of Iodine.

Basic usage info:

Always mix BTF Iodophor into cool or lukewarm water.  The hotter the water, the faster the Iodine will gas into the atmosphere.

Mix rate: 1/2 ounce concentrate per 5 gallons of water; 1/4 ounce concentrate per 2.5 gallons of water; 1 tsp per 1.5 gallons of water.

Allow 2 minutes of contact time, drain, air dry.  No rinsing is required.

Typically the Iodine mixed into solution will gas back into the atmosphere in roughly 12-24 hours, turning back to clear water.  In a completely air tight container, this shelf life is likely far greater, but it's pretty difficult to put an exact number on it for time.  There are things you can look for in solution color (amber vs. clear) and using Iodine test strips as a guide.  Personally, I mix a fresh solution in a small batch every time I have a brewery-related task, then discard and mix new when I'm doing something again.  It's cheap enough per use to do this.

Other things that will degrade the solution:

-Residual alkaline detergents.  The Iodine complex and the Iodophor concentrate are acidic solutions.  Mixing into any water that has residual alkaline detergent will neutralize the solution.  I've run into people that have had issues running Iodophor through plate/counterflow chillers where there was residual alkaline detergent remaining in the system and it neutralizes the Iodophor solution.

-Excessive agitation or shaking

-UV light, so leave your solution in a dark place

As far as the concentrated product itself, National Chemicals suggests a two year shelf life for storage.  However, we have run into situations where clients have turned in product over 10 years old and it passes QA tests.  For best results, buy smaller containers and try to go through the bottles in about 2 years - or brew more!

15
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Iodophor age
« on: February 19, 2019, 08:55:02 PM »
I'll contact them and ask someone to drop by

Hey guys!  I'm here for any Q&A regarding our BTF Iodophor.  I am our Brewing Ambassador for the Craft Meister and BTF Iodophor products here at National Chemicals.

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