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Messages - beersk

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1
I'm open to the idea and likely will not adhere to every step but just try to reduce the O2 pickup anywhere I can.

That's the crux of it though, you can't simply "pick and choose" where to limit the O2 pickup - you either go whole hog or you fail to effectively test the process.  If at any point, you pick up too high ppm of dissolved oxygen then you immediately run the risk of "ruined" results and your end product cannot be used for evaluation of the idea proposed in the PDF. I'm not trying to dissuade, or agree/disagree with any one in particular; I'm just saying, don't do it half-assed.  It's like rebuilding a vintage car; do it right or don't do it at all.
I don't necessarily agree with this. Chemical reactions are based on time, temperature and concentration - they aren't instant. If this is indeed a reproducible result, then there has to be some point below the maximum effect where it is just enough to cross the flavor threshold.

You may well be correct - certainly that the reactions are not instant, you are.  I've only read the article once through, but my recollection was that the levels at which dissolved oxygen is suggested to remain below was exceptionally low (<1ppm I think) throughout the majority of the warm-side process.  They even provided an example of some basic techniques us "american" brewers tend to use that immediately put us well above that threshold; not to mention all the stirring, pouring, splashing, metal-use, etc that only increases the oxidative factor.  All this said, I just can't see how someone could proceed to reproduce the PDF's process without going "whole hog" - it just seems a disservice otherwise - all opinion of course.

If I had the means/facilities/etc to get close to the suggested procedure I would give it a shot, but I'm too far off on too many bases to have the results prove meaningful.
If it really does make a difference when you do it "whole hog" as you say, I don't see why it wouldn't if you went 3/4 hog and tried as hard as possible to reduce O2 pickup. Like I've said, it can't hurt. I'm always looking for way to improve my beers, I'm not set in my ways like Denny! ;) (that's a friendly wink, not an a$$hole wink, by the way).

2
It can't hurt to try and reduce the amount of O2 introduced throughout the brewing process. I know I'm going to try... I may try to figure a way to siphon my strike water out of my kettle before I decide to put a ball valve on it.

Meanwhile I'll keep pouring my strike water and making crappy beer that gets crappy awards from crappy judges.
Boy, you are a stubborn one! By all means though. No one is saying to stop doing what you're doing. We're only saying that we should try it and see IF it makes any difference. I'm open to the idea and likely will not adhere to every step but just try to reduce the O2 pickup anywhere I can.

3
That's what kind of had me so fired up about this. There is absolutely, 100% nothing wrong with brewing with different processes if the brewer enjoys the results.

If someone loves the lagers or ales they make then there is no reason to change that. "World Class" beer is subjective.
I agree to a good extent. There's room for everybody to brew the way that works for them and meets their goals. I like my beers on the whole but I do like to try new techniques out. I started brewing back when there was conventional wisdom on the 'right way' to make good beer (secondary for everything, lots of crystal, all flavor/aroma hops in boil, etc.) and if I hadn't been willing to try new things my beer would've never evolved to where it is now. Having said that, I probably won't sweat not being able to reproduce O2 free brewing.
Agreed. I really like my lagers as they are right now; probably even more than I like my ales. But as a homebrewer, I'm always looking to experiment with tweaks here and there to see what kind of results I get. Sometimes the results are so good that it becomes part of my standard practice. Sometimes it isn't worth the effort at all. Most often though, the new technique either becomes a part of my toolkit that I break out from time to time, or gets further tweaks to adapt it to my process and the beers I enjoy.

TL;DR - even if you love the beer you're brewing now, there's no harm in trying new things. Every once in a while you strike gold.
It can't hurt to try and reduce the amount of O2 introduced throughout the brewing process. I know I'm going to try... I may try to figure a way to siphon my strike water out of my kettle before I decide to put a ball valve on it.

4
I still rewatch the old Brewing TV episodes on occasion. Other than that, not much at all.
Me too, miss that show, wish they would've kept it going even without Northern Brewer as their sponsor. I also watch Chop & Brew. It's not really about the brewing per se, but just the vibe of the show, like Brewing TV, those guys were great together.

5
Kai has chimed in:

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2016/04/30/low-oxygen-brewing/
Good to see Kai posting about it. Curious as hell to see if he experiments with this and what he finds.

6
Went to my local German specialty shop yesterday to buy some knockwurst and braunwurst. I asked if they had "it" that I could try. She suggested more sausage.
Now I'm hungry. Thanks a lot, DUDE.

7
Has anyone considered this whole thing may be a late April fools joke?
Yes, but it's a lot of effort for a joke on their part. It really does seem to me to have some merits. Whether it's worth it or not is for us to try for ourselves.

8
The mini mash test requires only SMB, mason jars, and maybe 2 hours of time.  I just ordered some SMB.  I’m going to give it a shot and post my results in a separate thread. 

NB flat rate shipping to CA is pretty slow, so I probably won’t be able to do it until the weekend after next.

Definitely doing the mini mash test.  No promises, but might beat you to it and of course will post results.  If you're holding off because you don't have SMB, plain old campden will work.  That's what I'll be using. 

So will you just be looking for an increased quality in wort malt aroma and flavor at this point?  Will you also be employing low DO methods for your preparations? You may very well stumble upon the "IT" factor.

The recipe pdf thing formatted like a scientific study actually says your mash will have less aroma because without oxidation, it can't escape.  Or something like that.  This part had me confused. 
Why does this confuse you? From what I understand, the idea is if it's not oxidizing, the malt aromas are not escaping the mash, thus you can't smell them.

9
I found tens of millions of dollars in errors, oversights, and general crap on a $50MM proposal. The VP of Construction requested that I be in the room when the "top brass" came in to review the proposal. I was excited to be invited, hoping to show my expertise and perhaps help answer questions about this subject that I was very familiar with. When all the upper management (all men) came in, they looked at me and the only other woman (a secretary) and asked why we hadn't made coffee yet.
In the movie version this is the part where you would say "I just saved you 30 million dollars, you make the coffee you jackass". This kind of thing makes me cringe -- I can't believe you had to put up with that.
Would've been difficult not to say that anyway. Seriously, that's f*cked.

10
The mini mash test requires only SMB, mason jars, and maybe 2 hours of time.  I just ordered some SMB.  I’m going to give it a shot and post my results in a separate thread. 

NB flat rate shipping to CA is pretty slow, so I probably won’t be able to do it until the weekend after next.

Definitely doing the mini mash test.  No promises, but might beat you to it and of course will post results.  If you're holding off because you don't have SMB, plain old campden will work.  That's what I'll be using. 
I have some, fortunately. I may be trying this on my next helles...just for sh*ts & giggles. Yes, even preboiling the water... Thinking I'll overheat the strike and sparge water so I can quart-by-quart transfer it to the mashtun. Don't know how else I'd do it. Gonna be a long brew session and likely something I'll do once just to say I did it.

11
This thread is like a car wreck.  I unsubscribed.  I try not to look. But, here I am.

They changed their minds, but I'm not entirely sure why. They advocate more of the direct heated Hochkurz step mash. And by they I feel like I'm always just referring to Bryan. The other guys know their sh*t, but Bryan seems to be the dictator, I mean main voice of them all.

This has been my issue all along.  This guy has been telling everyone that he's unlocked the magical box and knows something we don't know. 

Yet, he changed his mind on process?  How could he change his mind?  Is that an acknowledgement that he's possibly been wrong?

He's still trying to come up with a way to achieve the mystical quality he finds in ALL and only beers made in Germany.  But even though he's still trying, he knows he's right and that everything we are doing is wrong.

Maybe there's a lot of valid techniques in whatever this paper is that has been posted.  But for me, the messenger has poisoned the message. 

If any of you want to go ahead and post further studies of his techniques, I'll read with interest.
Well, that and he's never been to Germany. I think people are allowed to change their minds. What they shouldn't be doing is asserting themselves so forcefully before doing so.

12
The other thing that confuses me (OK, there are many!) is that these guys are huge proponents of decoction mashing.  How can you do a lodo decoction?
No, they aren't.

Wow, I'm surprised...obviously!  Every time I've expressed my views on decoction I've gotten arguments from them.  Any idea why they changed their tune?  Or did I misunderstand from the beginning?
They changed their minds, but I'm not entirely sure why. They advocate more of the direct heated Hochkurz step mash. And by they I feel like I'm always just referring to Bryan. The other guys know their sh*t, but Bryan seems to be the dictator, I mean main voice of them all.

13
The other thing that confuses me (OK, there are many!) is that these guys are huge proponents of decoction mashing.  How can you do a lodo decoction?
No, they aren't.

14
Was it really that far off after the release of 'Beard Beer'?
Who knows, but that beer was absolutely terrible.

15
I was calling it "it" before it was cool.  :P

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