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Messages - goschman

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136
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What makes a lager a lager?
« on: June 29, 2015, 01:39:35 PM »
Sorry if I had started a dumb topic. That was not my intention. I guess the only prerequisite for a lager is lager yeast. I suppose temp doesn't matter.
Sorry, man, didn't mean to offend, directly, anyway. I just thought it seemed like a fairly obvious answer. As a brewer who brews mostly lagers, I guess I'm a bit biased? It would seem Mark has a more scientific answer, even though I don't agree with the cold storage argument. Maybe he didn't read my post about Zwicklbier, zoiglbier, kellerbier, etc. Those beers aren't lagered for long periods of time, although kellerbier is longer than the other two, but still...it's typically still cloudy and young. You think Germans call those lagers? You bet they do. And by that same logic, altbier is typically lagered for long periods, but they don't call those lagers, same for Kolsch.

Any beer can be fined and dropped bright or filtered, making it look like a lager with very little time in cold storage. Does this make it not a lager since it isn't being stored cold for long periods? Still think that's not good enough of an argument.

No offense taken.

I guess I was looking past or not considering the most obvious answers. I think the answer to my question is that you can make an ale that will pass off as a lager but it isn't a real 'lager'. I already knew this but again was looking past the most direct answer. It may win first place against real lagers but it is an imposter. In simpler terms, it all comes down to tradition. A traditional German pils isn't going to use American two row, etc...

My take away is that there is an argument for tradition vs. impression.

137
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What makes a lager a lager?
« on: June 29, 2015, 12:24:48 PM »
Sorry if I had started a dumb topic. That was not my intention. I guess the only prerequisite for a lager is lager yeast. I suppose temp doesn't matter.

138
General Homebrew Discussion / classification for beer comp
« on: June 29, 2015, 10:43:17 AM »
I brewed two beers; a witbier that is dry hopped with citra and has habanero and pineapple in it and an American Blonde with lime zest and lemongrass.

Should these be classified as fruit beer, spice/herb/vegetable, or specialty?

Can I get away with just entering both in the specialty category? Oh wait I can probably only have one entry per category...



139
Commercial Beer Reviews / Re: Stone Pale Ale 2.0
« on: June 29, 2015, 06:57:56 AM »
I have been wanting to try this and Ruination 2.0 since they were released. Stone is a hit and miss kind of brewery for me but I do like most of their hoppy stuff. I do appreciate the fact that they are willing to move on from any outdated flagships and wish other big breweries would follow suit (I am looking at you Fat Tire)...

140
Beer Recipes / Re: Kolsch Guidance
« on: June 29, 2015, 06:49:13 AM »
Chalk me up as another one who likes a bit of vienna and wheat in mine. I also got the advice here to only do a FWH addition of noble hops which worked really well for me. I have really liked WLP029 but I think its time to give WY2565 a try next time.

141
Ingredients / Re: Sugar vis. Bru'n water
« on: June 26, 2015, 02:47:05 PM »
I you are adding it to the kettle after collecting your runnings I assume it would not be necessary.

142
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What makes a lager a lager?
« on: June 26, 2015, 01:56:38 PM »
Well, but... lets take a ridiculous extreme. If I ferment with trapist yeast but cold store for a couple months, it ain't going to taste lagery. So my money is on lager yeast. But final product taste is really all that matters.

For sure. When I say 'ale' yeast, I am referring to something like 1007, 1056, US05, etc...

143
Commercial Beer Reviews / Re: Montejo?
« on: June 26, 2015, 01:43:22 PM »
I have been drinking a lot of Mexican beer lately...may as well try another...

144
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What makes a lager a lager?
« on: June 26, 2015, 01:38:17 PM »
My buddy was over tasting my beers the other day and was asking about my lager on tap. He was curious if it was a 'real lager' like stored for weeks at close to freezing temps. I said no, I guess not. I fermented this around 52F and it has been in the fridge at 38F for a few weeks. I don't have the ability to truly lager a beer but I can cold condition after it has been kegged.

"Been in the fridge at 38F for a few weeks" sounds a lot like "stored for weeks at close to freezing temps" to me.  I'd call that a "real" lager.

Yeah me too. I just know that some may insist that is not cold enough. I tend to get over-analytical about very trivial things. At the end of the day, I am drinking the majority of the beer I brew so I can call it whatever I like...it's all just semantics and relativity at this point I suppose

145
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What makes a lager a lager?
« on: June 26, 2015, 12:48:48 PM »
Ok so to go off topic. Has anyone ever experienced a sort of "dirty sock/feet odor" taste in a lager? I know that may sound weird...I don't know how to describe a taste as the way something actually smells...

I have had a few commercial lagers over the years that had this distinct flavor to me but not to anyone else with me. Basically undrinkable and I have always referred to them as "feet beers". My current lager has just a very slight impression of this characteristic however I think it is something that I may just be sensitive to and not necessarily an off flavor.
That could be isovalaric (sp?) acid, caused by certain bacteria in the presence of oxygen and stuff found in wort (not to sound too scientific). If its sulfur you're smelling some lager yeast strains throw that more than others. But stink feet is usually isovalaric

Interesting. Good to know. Thanks!

Found this:
"So, how does isovaleric acid get into beer? Most of the time, it’s formed when hops get old, particularly when the alpha acids degrade. I’ve discussed hop acids already in the bitterness article, so if you need a quick overview, head over there and it might clarify some things. This image (from the above-linked article) shows the basic structure of the alpha acids (on the left) and the iso-alpha acids (right) that they isomerize into during boiling in the brewing kettle (at which time they become the source of bitterness in beer). Basically, there are 3 main types of alpha acid (and the 3 corresponding iso-alpha acids) and while they have the same basic structure as each other, there are differences at the “R-group” (top right of the molecule in the images). The differences are minor, but these minor differences can be interesting and influential nonetheless. One of these 3 alpha acids (humulone) has an R-group which is called an isovaleryl group. When this alpha acid oxidizes (due to age and/or improper storage), this R-group can be removed from the molecule and becomes flavor-active, leading to the cheesy/sweatsock flavor I’m on about.

Another way isovaleric acid can get into beer is through a Brettanomyces infection. It’s not the most common source in beer, but infection by this yeast genus can produce cheesy aromas, as well as a host of other undesirable flavor-active compounds like acetic acid (vinegar), 4-ethylphenol (bandages), and 4-ethylguaiacol (smoky). Some breweries intentionally “pitch” Brett into their fermentors as they try to achieve a certain flavor profile or match a particular Belgian style, but more often than not a Brett infection is a bad thing. Brett is also used in winemaking to achieve certain flavors, but it can also be a spoilage organism here depending on the intent of the oenologist.

So limiting undesirable isovaleric acid levels in your beer comes down to using fresh and high-quality raw materials (store hops in a cool, dark environment and, if possible, oxygen-free), and maintaining sanitary brewing conditions and using plentiful and healthy yeast to limit the potential for beer spoilage."

My hops were fresh out of the sealed package so it sounds like it could be slight infection. Luckily it is barely detectable and has not worsened or ruined the batch. The strange thing is he distinctly mentions this as an aroma when I only get it in the taste. The aroma is great...

146
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What makes a lager a lager?
« on: June 26, 2015, 12:23:50 PM »
Ok so to go off topic. Has anyone ever experienced a sort of "dirty sock/feet odor" taste in a lager? I know that may sound weird...I don't know how to describe a taste as the way something actually smells...

I have had a few commercial lagers over the years that had this distinct flavor to me but not to anyone else with me. Basically undrinkable and I have always referred to them as "feet beers". My current lager has just a very slight impression of this characteristic however I think it is something that I may just be sensitive to and not necessarily an off flavor.   


147
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What makes a lager a lager?
« on: June 26, 2015, 11:02:03 AM »
Seems like my under-developed palate has trouble discerning between lager yeast and a clean ale yeast fermented cool. I guess I need to brew the same recipe with lager yeast using normal fermentation profile and then with a clean ale yeast fermented cool.

Has Marshall done this? I know he makes lagers with WLP029 but has he done a side by side with lager yeast?
Lager fermented at high temperature vs lager fermented at low temperature: no difference discerned.

I saw that one. I was thinking clean ale yeast fermented at cool temp vs lager yeast fermented at low temp

148
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What makes a lager a lager?
« on: June 26, 2015, 10:47:26 AM »
Seems like my under-developed palate has trouble discerning between lager yeast and a clean ale yeast fermented cool. I guess I need to brew the same recipe with lager yeast using normal fermentation profile and then with a clean ale yeast fermented cool.

Has Marshall done this? I know he makes lagers with WLP029 but has he done a side by side with lager yeast?

149
Yeast and Fermentation / What makes a lager a lager?
« on: June 26, 2015, 10:11:58 AM »
I have run into a bit of confusion regarding this lately. What things determine if a beer is a 'lager'. Is it just the yeast? A combination of the yeast, fermentation temperature, and post fermentation storage? If I fermented a batch at 70F with lager yeast would it be considered a lager although probably a quite bad one?

It seems like a lager is just as much (if not more) about the process than the actual yeast. To me, this creates a huge grey area. At the end of the day, I realize it is all about the results but I am just curios about others feedback. 

My buddy was over tasting my beers the other day and was asking about my lager on tap. He was curious if it was a 'real lager' like stored for weeks at close to freezing temps. I said no, I guess not. I fermented this around 52F and it has been in the fridge at 38F for a few weeks. I don't have the ability to truly lager a beer but I can cold condition after it has been kegged.

150
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: how warm is to warm?
« on: June 26, 2015, 08:05:45 AM »
What yeast strain?

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