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Messages - natebriscoe

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61
Ingredients / Re: Brewtan B
« on: October 13, 2016, 09:03:10 AM »
Something I have been wondering is if smb will act in a similar way to ascorbic acid, which I believe that when it is completely bound up it becomes an oxidizer. Any testing so far has not shown this, but I wonder.

62
Ingredients / Re: Brewtan B
« on: October 13, 2016, 08:54:03 AM »
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!

What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?
Somebody with a better chemistry background is going to have to field this one. But in my mind it's still the purists co2 we can get and if it was a major problem bottle conditioning would more detrimental to the beer.

63
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Experimental Brewing podcast Episode 25
« on: October 13, 2016, 06:14:09 AM »
Still doesn't show up for me today on iTunes

64
Ingredients / Re: Brewtan B
« on: October 13, 2016, 05:20:35 AM »
Edit: Removed the nugget due to poor attitudes.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianlayzellphotographs/3977042044

Maybe we need a group hug?
No kidding. Just when I thought everyone was going to start getting along again.

65
Ingredients / Re: Brewtan B
« on: October 13, 2016, 05:19:21 AM »
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.



This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.
The image of those two glasses of wort clearly shows a difference in color. Can you elaborate on the specific differences between the process of producing each batch of wort?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
One wort was made with low o2 mashing procedures (light), the other was standard homebrewing procedures(dark).
The differences at that stage would be preboiled water and smb.

66
Ingredients / Re: Brewtan B
« on: October 12, 2016, 02:58:48 PM »
This all jives with the British method of carbonating in a cask, even when bottling. Different method from spunding, but should have the same result.

Same difference, using pure fermentation co2 to carbonate and keep DO down.



Honest question...is the fermentation CO2 pure?

As pure as it can get.

What does that even mean?  If you're saying that the gasses given off by fermentation are 100% CO2, that false.  That smell coming out of the airlock?  That'ts not CO2.

When breweries capture CO2, I'm pretty sure they also filter it.
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

67
Ingredients / Re: Brewtan B
« on: October 12, 2016, 11:06:01 AM »
Does anyone know the purity of typical welding shop CO2?
Pretty sure it varies and no welding supply could tell you for sure. Probably in the 98-99% range, which is far less than perfect.

Do you have a source for that?
I work for a auto repair/welding supply Shop and have discussed with our suppliers several times, no one seems to have any real specs. That is the best I can get out of them. I will say that using tank co2 to force carbonation a low oxygen beer will knock out all that low o2 character real fast! So enough o2 to bring a beer above 1ppm DO when force carbed.

68
Ingredients / Re: Brewtan B
« on: October 12, 2016, 10:54:43 AM »
Does anyone know the purity of typical welding shop CO2?
Pretty sure it varies and no welding supply could tell you for sure. Probably in the 98-99% range, which is far less than perfect.

69
Ingredients / Re: Brewtan B
« on: October 11, 2016, 11:17:10 AM »
For me the difference is night and day, I don't see a reason to do further testing to prove it works. Any testing at this point is to streamline o2 reduction in my brewing process. Would the more and more people popping up saying it works not be at least a little conformation, for those that need proof before trying it? Another note this Bryan person must have really pissed everyone off here.

OK, then I'll use the same standard of evidence for Brewtan...it's SO OBVIOUS it works that I don't need to do any objective testing.  Would you accept that?
I'm am not saying brewtan does not work, at all. And I am more than willing to try it myself. See the difference, i am willing to find out on my own. My initial speculation is they will yield different results, but more than willing to try it for myself. Where is everyone getting it anyway?

70
All Grain Brewing / Re: Beat down on a brew day
« on: October 11, 2016, 10:36:22 AM »
Possible your pump is cavitating?  Picking up air at a connection somewhere? Or the wort boiling under the false bottom?

71
Ingredients / Re: Brewtan B
« on: October 11, 2016, 10:30:06 AM »
For me the difference is night and day, I don't see a reason to do further testing to prove it works. Any testing at this point is to streamline o2 reduction in my brewing process. Would the more and more people popping up saying it works not be at least a little conformation, for those that need proof before trying it? Another note this Bryan person must have really pissed everyone off here.

72
All Grain Brewing / Re: Beat down on a brew day
« on: October 11, 2016, 08:10:40 AM »
Also remember most of your enzymes are in the liquid not the malt. Liquid temp is more important than malt temp.
My mind was blown the first time I heard this. It really makes so much sense when you think about it.
No kidding. Years back when I built my direct rims, I learned that the hard way.

73
All Grain Brewing / Re: Beat down on a brew day
« on: October 11, 2016, 07:40:13 AM »
Also remember most of your enzymes are in the liquid not the malt. Liquid temp is more important than malt temp.

74
All Grain Brewing / Re: Beat down on a brew day
« on: October 11, 2016, 07:36:28 AM »
The rims probe needs to be output flow (I like it right at the kettle valve). I use the hysteresis control instead of pid for my direct rims, stops the short cycling problem. I can ramp from  acid rest to Sach rest in less than 30min, check your flowers rate.

75
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Done with hefes
« on: October 08, 2016, 10:15:16 AM »
@ 1hr even less hay;  1:15 same;  1:30 starting to think we might be turning a corner towards malty but not 100% sure.  Spoon smells pretty dang cool.  Not malty or sweet, but a very real smell like standing in the middle of a field on a nice day vibe. 

I've never experienced any real notable differences in domestic vs import (2 row vs GR pils) in the past even though I cave for the real deal on my hefe (Weyermann usually).   Main reason I used Briess is one time I got a sack so fresh, it literally stunk up my car for a week with only being in there for a 10m ride.  So I know there's potential.  In the end, I think freshness might trump origin or variety.  Someone is welcome to run their own trial on some imported stuff.   
I see a noticeable difference between maltsters let alone between 2 row and pilsner. But anyway that's a different conversation. Freshness is paramount in all foods. So if 2 row can be improved, that's great! Good luck testing. I know slightly toasting oats really wakes them up.

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