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Messages - denny

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Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What yeast would you recommend?
« on: June 12, 2018, 06:11:07 PM »
Yeah, but it's unfortunately too common for any wheat beer to be called a hefe.  Since a hefe yeast will typically produce banana and clove flavors, personally I'd want something cleaner so it didn't stomp on the lemon/lime thing.  I'd recommend a clean American ale yeast.

I thought lemon-lime-banana sounded pretty good. Kind of like a smoothie. 4VG could be a little out of place though. Maybe a Belgian strain that's mostly ester, like 1214?

Sure, if you want lemon/lime/banana/bubblegum!  For my tastes, the lemon and lime would be enough.  More would muddy it..again, to my tastes.

I will only address one point, which I feel qualified on, the yeast.  2007 is similar (or identical) to Anheuser-Busch yeast, and in a very light lager such as this, the slight "green apple" note Budweiser displays will probably be quite evident.  I would use the 2124 to get the very clean, lightly malty character I find in Peroni.  2124 is a solid Euro-style yeast.

This is something we talk about on the Brew Files due out tomorrow.  Despite the fact that we all associate Bud with acetaldehyde/green apple, it actually measures at about the lowest level of any beer out there.  So why do we all think it has it?  Could it be confirmation bias?  Could it be that the taste threshold is lower than thought?  I's a dichotomy.

Yeast and Fermentation / Re: What yeast would you recommend?
« on: June 12, 2018, 05:43:33 PM »
A hefeweizen is pretty much defined by using a hefeweizen yeast strain; otherwise it's some other wheat beer.

Yeah, but it's unfortunately too common for any wheat beer to be called a hefe.  Since a hefe yeast will typically produce banana and clove flavors, personally I'd want something cleaner so it didn't stomp on the lemon/lime thing.  I'd recommend a clean American ale yeast.

Equipment and Software / Re: Toasted Malts In Bru'n Water
« on: June 09, 2018, 06:44:58 PM »
That's what I'd guess, but maybe not since they have some DP.  Hopefully Martin will weigh in so we'll all know!

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Help With AHA Account
« on: June 09, 2018, 04:07:05 PM »

Events / Re: YCH Hop and Brew School 2018
« on: June 08, 2018, 08:37:38 PM »
Can't go this year, I'm bummed.

Yeah, especially since it's every 2 years now.

Events / YCH Hop and Brew School 2018
« on: June 08, 2018, 07:17:52 PM »
I just got word that YCH will be running the homebrewer session of Hop and Brew School this year.  Dates are 8/30-31.  I'm trying to get more info on speakers.  Registration is here....

By the way I cracked one of those beers. Hasn't changed as far as I can tell. Of course mine hasn't bounced up and down the California coast on its way to Pasadena lol

we were pretty much set to do a tasting, but now Drew has to make a trip to FL.

Kegging and Bottling / Q
« on: June 07, 2018, 09:10:36 PM »
Phils Filler.  I've got one that's definitely over 20 years old.  I don't know if you can still get them though.

Wow!  That's a classic!  But I think it was "Phil's Philler"!  Phil is Dan's son.

Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Help be interpret this
« on: June 07, 2018, 04:02:00 PM »
We should be clear here so that people reading this don't get the wrong idea: the stuff Dr. Cone proposes is not theory. It's well established and well studied microbiology. We shouldn't entertain the idea that this is something that requires testing to be proved right.

Maybe testing to see how it applies to each individual, but certainly not testing to validate.

We have the Macro-Lager industry to thank for most of what we know about ester and higher alcohol formation and synthesis.

Absolutely.  I was gonna mention that in response to Dave but I got involved with something and spaced it.

Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Help be interpret this
« on: June 07, 2018, 03:15:02 PM »
Your interpretation of Dr. Cone's theory appears correct.  Dr. Cone's theories, however, deserve more testing.  I honestly don't know what to think until I test it some more.

Remember, Dr. cone was no slouch.  I've been working on his advice for 15 years and find it right on.

Yeast and Fermentation / Help be interpret this
« on: June 06, 2018, 10:12:50 PM »
Back in 2003, the Homebrew Digest ran "A Fortnight of Yeast", where you could ask questions of Dr. Clayton Cone, head of Lallemand and inventor of Fermaid K.  Here's the question I asked and Dr. Cone's response....

"Dr. Cone,
   First, thank you so much for giving us some of your time.
   My question concerns yeast growth as it relates to flavors in beer.  I
have read several articles mentioning that yeast growth is important to
flavor production in beer, and that the amount of yeast growth is related to
the amount of yeast pitched.  My own completely unscientific experiments
lead  me to believe that I produce more "interesting' beers when I, for
instance, repitch only part of the yeast slurry from a previous batch
rather than the entire amount.  The conventional wisdom in the homebrew
world seems to be to use the entire previous slurry to produce short lag
times.  Is there a relationship between yeast growth and the flavors
produced in beer?  Is it better to pitch an entire previous yeast slurry,
or is there a benefit to using a large, but not entire, amount of
slurry?  I apologize for the vagueness of the question, but I have no way
to quantify the exact amounts I've been using.  It's simply either "all" or
   Thank you again.
Denny Conn

Denny Conn,
   Ester and other flavor component production or synthesis is a complex
subject because there are so many variables taking place at the same time.
   You are right, ester production is related to yeast growth but not in the
way you might think. The key element to yeast growth and ester production is
acyl Co-A. It is necessary for both yeast growth and ester production.  When
it is busy with yeast growth, during the early part of the fermentation, it
is not available for ester production.  Ester production is directly related
to biomass production. Everything that increases biomass production
(intensive aeration, sufficient amount of unsaturated fatty acids,
stirring) decreases ester production. The more biomass that is produced the
more Co-enzyme A is used and therefore not available for ester production.
Anything that inhibits or slows down yeast growth usually causes an increase
in ester production: low nutrient, low O2.  It has been noted that a drop in
available O2 from 8 ppm down to 3 ppm can cause a four fold increase in
   Stirring in normal gravity decreases ester production. Stirring in high
gravity increases ester production. CO2 pressure in early fermentation
decreases ester production.  Taller fermenters produce less esters than
short fermenters. High temperature early in fermentation decreases ester
production.  High temperature later in fermentation increases ester
production. Low pitching rate can result in less esters.
   There are other flavor components such as higher alcohol that have there
set of variables. Stirring increases production of higher alcohols.  CO2
pressure does not effect the production of alcohol. Amino acid levels in the
wort effect the production of higher alcohols.  Most of the higher alcohol
is produced during the growth phase (exponential phase) of the yeast.
   I am sure that there are many other variables.  I am also sure that there
are beer makers that have experienced the very opposite with each of the

   Pitching rates depend on several factors:
   (1) The speed in which you wish the fermentation to take place.  Some
professional brew master are in more of a hurry than others; desired beer
style, shortage of fermenter space.  Pitching rates would vary as a means to
increase or decrease the total fermentation time. 10 X 10/6th cell
population for normal fermentation rates.  20 X 10/6th or more for a quick
turn around.
   (2) Temperature control.  If lack of refrigeration is a problem, the
fermentation needs to be spread out over a longer period  by pitching with
less yeast.
   (3) Health of the pitching yeast. If the pitching yeast has not been
under ideal conditions (4C for less than one week) then larger pitching rate
must be done to compensate for the deteriorate of the yeast.  Increased
pitching rates has its limits in trying to compensate for poor storage
   (4) When all other variables are under control you can use variations in
pitching rates to achieve certain flavor profile that are of interest to
   Conventional wisdom regarding pitching rate can lead to problems.  During
each fermentation cycle the yeast will increase in size about three times,
so if you use all the yeast from the previous batch you will soon be
pitching with a huge amount of yeast.  Professional brewers usually re-pitch
with about 25% of the yeast from the previous batch.
   Proper handling of the yeast during storage (4C and <7 days) will
any problem with long lag phase. Start with a fresh culture of yeast after
about five recycles for bacteria control and or after 10 - 15 cycles for
genetic drift purposes.
   There are many who will say that they are proud of the fact that they
used the same yeast after over 100 cycles.  More power to them. I wish that
I could explain their luck. Good practices suggest frequent renewal with a
fresh culture is a good policy.
   Thank you for your very good question.

Clayton Cone"

OK, so I've always taken that to mean that pitching "too much" yeast means that there is less biomass production and consequently more esters.  That's pretty much the opposite of the conventional wisdom, as MANY people have pointed out to me over the years.  So, I want to know how you interpret this.  Am I right?  Or am I totally missing something that confirms the conventional wisdom?


What happens when your pub chain wants a brewery but has no room? You make room! When Brian Herbertson joined the Simmzy's group, that was his challenge. The answer - stick it on the second floor! Together we sit down and discuss just how you put a brewery on the second story, tackling supplying a whole chain with beer from one location and his spin on the summer's new hit style - Brut IPA. We also get some great feedback on Speed Brewing and Drew butchers the Polish language, again. We cover punks in the news, alcohol in the industry, the British Museum, homebrew charity and answer your questions!

Whichever you prefer.  Other than that, it doesn't matter.

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: "watery beer"
« on: June 04, 2018, 08:23:14 PM »
I'd like to see your presentation regarding boil off rate and its effects - sounds interesting.

I'd like some clarification on pH. It seems as there is a lot of confusion out there as to the correct way to measure it, and at what temperature these normal ranges are referring to.  Additionally, does Auto temperature compensation only refer to the instruments ability to calibrate or to measure the pH of wort (or whatever solution).

Again, thanks for the insight.

pH is always measured at room temp...around 70F. 

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