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Messages - hopfenundmalz

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All Grain Brewing / Re: Martin B. is the man!
« on: January 29, 2015, 03:31:02 AM »
Is it just me or is anyone else managing mash PH by room temp, and it varies by recipe? Perhaps I'm just wasting time and energy and a consistent mash PH of 5.5-5.6 Room temp is the way to go??? If I wanted a more acidic wort In the kettle I'd just adjust down- and that would carry through with the hops and yeast PH drop that happens........not feeling like there's much in responses suggesting a best practice here.

It's an area ripe for experimentation.

I do like to get my German Pilsners in the %.2-5.3 range so they really "pop". Dark beers up around 5.5-5.6.

All Grain Brewing / Re: Martin B. is the man!
« on: January 28, 2015, 08:09:18 PM »
There's definitely several things going on here. The first is the pH of the mash itself and how it relates to conversion. From what I understand, pH in the higher end of that range (~5.6 measured at room temp) leads to the best conversion in the mash. Secondly, there is the consideration that must be taken to keep the pH of the sparge from rising too high in order to minimize tannin extraction.


Finally, there is the pH of the finished beer itself and how it relates to flavor. The numbers you're talking about really have more to do with this than the pH of the mash itself. Even though you're setting a specific mash pH for these beers, what you're really doing is targeting a final pH to get the flavor profile you're shooting for. For example, you like your wit's to finish with a lower pH than your dark beers. You're choosing to adjust your mash pH, which will result in a lower kettle pH, and a lower pH after fermentation. You could just as easily take a measurement of your finished beer and adjust the pH at that point, even if your mash pH was actually 5.6 instead of the 5.2 you normally shoot for.

This information is for the most part on the money.  What lot of brewers on this are failing to take into account is that one of the first things that a yeast culture does after pitching is lower the pH to below 4.5, sometimes even lower than 4.0.  How far a yeast culture lowers the pH of the medium is species and strain dependent.  This phenomenon is part of a yeast culture's defense mechanisms (which is one of the reasons why replacing the green beer in a yeast crop with boiled tap water is not a good idea).  Most of us have been told or have read that pathogens do not grow in beer.  The science behind this claim is that the growth of pathogens like Clostridium botulinum (the bacterium that causes boutilism) is inhibited below 4.6 pH.

And why pickled foods are safe to eat, low pH.

The Pub / Re: Elysian Just sold to Anheuser-Busch
« on: January 28, 2015, 03:48:08 PM »
not my point. My point is that the idea that a major buys up a craft and it 'stays the same' is only true to the extent that incremental adjustment must be slow enough to allow the customer to adapt their expectations. People didn't start wanting less hops in their bud because their tastes just inexplicably changed. Their expectations were handled through careful application of incremental change. We all drink goose island and say "it's still good" and as long as one generation is never so far from the last that we say, "jeez goose island tastes kind cheap and ricey lately doesn't it?" costs can be lowered. I don't know the history of fat tire recipe, perhaps it has changed and that's why people think less of it today but I expect it's that a) You personally think less of it because your palate has changed over the years and b) the palate of the 'average' craft beer drinker has shifted over the years. That's a different thing than AB slowly reducing the level of hopping in bud over the course of decades to cut production costs without admitting to their customer base that the beer was getting less and less tasty, the whole while pointing at customer desire as the reason for their low level of flavor.

I'm not so sure you can blame the drift away from hops in bud on manipulation by AB. If you look at the 1940s-1980s there was a drift away across the board from flavorful foods and bitter foods towards foods with high salt and sugar content and otherwise fairly bland. You can track those changes through other foods. You don't see the wedge salad become a popular item on menus in the 80s unless people wanted to consume complete blandness. AB sure steered into the skid on that one with their advertising and product adjustment but they can't be singularly blamed for it happening.

Bitterness used to be a component in food stuffs, and some of those have made a comeback - thinking of arugula. I also remember horehound candies as being bitter, the Grandparents always had some on hand.

Sour foods were also more common, as pickling was a way to preserve foods.

Equipment and Software / Re: Cleaning SS Immersion Chiller
« on: January 28, 2015, 02:49:00 PM »
Not to throw cold water on this discussion (euuw, bad pun) but, why would you want a SS wort chiller in the first place!  Copper is TWENTY FIVE times more efficient at heat transfer than stainless steel!  To do the same job you would need a 25 times bigger SS chiller than a copper one.  SS is lousy at heat transfer.  That's why they clad the bottoms of SS pots and kettles with copper or aluminum.

As someone who had a Heat Transfer course, let me say what is going on in the real application.

The conductive heat transfer is for solid-solid-solid applications. not our case.

We have liquid-solid-liquid. The heat transfer of the liquid to solid is really low. Especially if we don't stir the wort, then stratification happens and you have hot liquid next to the metal so the Delta T suffers.

Sometimes we use a gas-solid-liquid system, so in that case the gas to metal interface is where the big resistance is.

I ran some numbers a couple years back, and even though you have a material like SS which is 1/25 the the conductive heat transfer, the big resistors in series were the liquids, and the SS overall heat transfer coefficient was 88% of the copper chiller. There was a video online from a homebrew shop that showed the SS chiller time to temp was 84% of the copper chiller they baselined against. That is close enough for me (they weren't stirring).

There copper or aluminum in a clad pot bottom is to spread the heat and reduce the scorching that can happen with thick foods. It does not increase the heat transfer, just spreads the heat. How can 2 layers of SS and one layer of copper be better at heat transfer than one layer of SS?

Material selection depends on other factors: cost, mass, appearance (shiny!), corrosion resistance and so on.
Cars used to have copper radiators, now aluminum due to the lower cost and mass of aluminum, even though the conductive heat transfer is about 1/2 for the aluminum.
If you aren't convinced yet, look at the following link. The Example is for a gas-solid-gas system, you might as well use plastic to save money.


All Grain Brewing / Re: Chinook Only Pliny-Esque Recipe?
« on: January 27, 2015, 11:02:35 PM »
I would stay away from a Chinook only brew. Chinook has a very high cohumulone level which can impart a very unpleasant bitterness. Citra and Columbus hops have significantly lower cohumulone levels with similar alpha levels and higher hop oil levels (flavor and aroma)
There have been some studies done that say that the original paper that said that was flawed. Cohumulone is more soluble, and you can get up to 50 more IBUs using a high cohumulone hop. More IBUs = harsher when it is to be the same. The original paper didn't have a lab analysis of IBUs. Let the flames commence!

Commercial Beer Reviews / Re: Nooner Pils
« on: January 27, 2015, 10:57:59 PM »
As for IPLs, I think it just depends on your approach. I've had some (and made some) that were hoppy in an APA kind of way - good beer, really drinkable, some with noble hops, some with American ale type hops.  But I've also had (and made) IPLs  that were basically cold fermented IPAs, every bit as hoppy.  I think it's a fun style to play with because there are no rules. Use a ton of noble, use American ale hops, blend both. I like to use the super clean Mexican lager strain and have fun with it.

Thanks Hoosier -- Just realized my post slid in there between the Nooner and IPL.  I'm actually wondering about a yeast recommendation for Nooner.  It's obviously crisp and dry, and I know the gravity ~ 1.047 -- 1.007, but Pilsners are uncharted territory for me.


That may be what I heard.

Ingredients / Re: low alpha hops for bittering is expensive
« on: January 27, 2015, 05:26:47 PM »
Low alpha hops for bittering is expensive in the long run. I've typically used the high alpha hops, especially Magnum for bittering, along with low alpha hops at 15-20 min for the hop oils, character and flavor. In fact, I've read that some breweries do the same to hold down costs. However, some of you have noted that you like the character of beer using low alpha hops for bittering. Aren't you at risk of getting a grassy flavor using so many hops? This would be a good challenge to find out which way tastes best. Or, would the two differing versions be similar?

Some of my favorites have been all Saaz, all HM, or all EKG.

All Grain Brewing / Re: Martin B. is the man!
« on: January 27, 2015, 01:04:53 PM »
Huh? Mash Ph at mash temp ( temp corrected to room temp) should be same as room temp PH.

No, the pH of a solution goes down as temperature rises.  Neutral pH at room temperature is 7.0.  Neutral pH at 100C/212F is 6.14.

Code: [Select]
T (°C) Kw (mol2 dm-6) pH
0 0.114 x 10-14 7.47
10 0.293 x 10-14 7.27
20 0.681 x 10-14 7.08
25 1.008 x 10-14 7.00
30 1.471 x 10-14 6.92
40 2.916 x 10-14 6.77
50 5.476 x 10-14 6.63
100 51.3 x 10-14 6.14

so if that were the case, anyone taking mash PH that cools to room temp doesnt have an actual PH to compare to their target PH. unless Im missing something, that would be significant if your cooled mash temp was 5.2-5.5... that would mean the actual mash PH would be lower by about .4-.5 (150F mash vs room temp sample of 70F)???

so every PH reading I take that is cooled, I should correct lower by a factor of .4-.5?  if this is accurate, that's news to me!

here's similar discussion with Kai's comments on this:

"In short:
- don’t test at mash temp since this shortens the life of your pH meter probe
- the room temp to mash temp pH shift is more like 0.2 than 0.35
- Mash pH optima are generally reported as room temp pH values and by comparing them to room temp measurements you remove the ambiguity.
- A correct room temp mash target range is 5.3 – 5.6 with the boundaries being quite fuzzy. I.e  5.2 and 5.7 should work too.
- Don’t worry what the actual mash temp pH values are.

According to Kai somewhere, the brewing literature (was it Narziss?) states that you want a reading of 5.3 - 5.6 at room temperature. After reading that I stopped worrying about the shift to a lower value at higher temperatures.

All Grain Brewing / Re: Martin B. is the man!
« on: January 27, 2015, 03:06:44 AM »
Yeah mine has temp correction.   I've just heard varying opinions on whether it actually works.
The temp correction is for the electronics, not the reaction vs temp.

All Grain Brewing / Re: Grain Mill Gap Setting
« on: January 27, 2015, 02:09:29 AM »

Never used rice hulls, but it has crossed my mind recently

Make sure you soak them first or they'll add to your grain absorption loss.
This will also help take the dirt off.

I thought the ones we use were washed. Might have to test that some day.
Not the pound I got from one LHBS. Water turned lake brown. I recirculated a little extra that batch.

I have seen pros put them right in the mash, half a 50 lb bag at a time. Will look into the ones I keep on hand, and do a water test.

All Grain Brewing / Re: Grain Mill Gap Setting
« on: January 27, 2015, 02:03:27 AM »
Never used rice hulls, but it has crossed my mind recently

Make sure you soak them first or they'll add to your grain absorption loss.
This will also help take the dirt off.

I thought the ones we use were washed. Might have to test that some day.

Going Pro / Re: Where's Tom?
« on: January 27, 2015, 12:39:15 AM »
Looks a little thinner, too.  Brewing is good exercise.

I thought that also.

Showed the picture to Susan and pointed out the grey and thinner body, she said those 2 probably go hand in hand when you open a brewery.

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: commerical schwarzbier examples
« on: January 27, 2015, 12:38:42 AM »

Koestritzer and Moenschof come to mind from my time in Germany.

Devils Backbone makes a very good one, don't know if you can find it, I can't.

I really like the Moenschof. Kostriker is ok.
Koestritzer was always on at our favorite Pizza place in Wiesbaden, and was a change up from the usual Koenig Pils.

Oh man Wiesbaden! I lived about 15 minutes from there and frequented often. Great memories.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The Koestritzer glass, had many a beer out of those.

Where were you at in the area?

I lived on the east side of Wiesbaden, worked in Ruesselsheim.

When you get to know the local brewers, talk water chemistry with them, and then they offer to let you get water from the nano-filtration set up. Of course you select some really good homebrew to share, and then share the recipe when asked.

Now that is pretty cool.

I thought it was a good trade!

Going Pro / Re: Where's Tom?
« on: January 27, 2015, 12:08:47 AM »
Excellent. Have to get out there again to say hello. Looks like some grey in that beard, or is it the lighting?

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