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Messages - klickitat jim

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1186
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: First yeast starter! Any help appreciated!
« on: November 15, 2015, 06:52:26 AM »
I was going to ask if the stirplate had been used yet... I'd exchange it for an O2 reg and stainless wand.

1187
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: First yeast starter! Any help appreciated!
« on: November 15, 2015, 03:30:09 AM »
How set are you on imperial stout? That is a whole bag of special tricks in itself. You may have much greater success starting with a plain old American stout. That way you can learn all the basics first.

1188
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: November 15, 2015, 02:01:34 AM »
If you really want to be a masochist you would use decoction to hit your temps. 
I considered that, but when I entered tripple decoction into my Best Beer, Most Fun, Least Effort slide rule, the least effort part wouldn't slide that far to the left

1189
General Homebrew Discussion / Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: November 15, 2015, 01:02:21 AM »
I'm looking forward to Monday night (middle of my "weekend, and I'm a shift worker) when I am going to try using nearly every unnecessary technique I can think of. I'm bored, so im going to type it up. If you are bored too, feel free to read and poke holes init.

The goal is experience, and maybe some good beer. I'm a fan of Denny's philosophy,  Best Beer, Least Work, Most Fun. This brewday might fudge some of those principles around a little. But I am also NOT a fan of arguing for or against techniques based solely on what someone else said. Being adamant on a subject based only on what someone else said, with no experience to support it, is kinda hollow. Plus Denny always says "but try it and see if it works for YOU." So, if this stuff works for me GREAT! If not then I can say that it doesnt, rather than I've been told it doesn't.

I'm not necessarily trying to brew a perfect example of any specific style, or clone an existing beer, so I'm avoiding referring to the beers by style.

Beer #1
6 gallon batch OG ~1.048
9.25 lbs Best Malz Pilsner
1.25 lbs Best Malz Vienna
Mashed at 1.6 qt/lb at 5.5 pH
Step-mashed with my direct fire recirculated MLT
132F protein rest 15 min
142F maltose rest 45 min
158F dextrin rest 45 min
Batch sparged
Preboil adjusted to 5.0 pH
60 min boil
28g Hallertau Mittelfruh at 60
28g Hallertau Mittelfruh at 10 (1/2 tab wirlflock, wyeast nutrients)
Rapid chill to 48-50F
Yeast blend
1LO2HK at 50F starter of wyeast 2308 Munich and 1LO2HK starter of Wyeast 2352 Munich II
Temp control set at 50F

Beer #2
6 gallon batch OG ~1.056
10 lbs Best Malz Pils
2.25 lbs Best Malz Pils
Same mash process as beer #1
56g Hallertau Mittelfruh at 60
56g Hallertau Mittelfruh in wirlpool at 170F for 30 min
Same fermentation as beer #1

I think...
Some of these techniques are supposed to be how they do it in Germany (a lot of this came from listening to Kai Troester on Basic Brewing)
The 5.5 mash pH is said to put the enzymatic activity in its happy place
The protein rest is said to help clarity and something else but I forget what
The low sac rest is said increases fermentability
The high sac rest is said to build back some body after the low rest by continuing to work on remaining starches
Adjusting to 5.0 for the boil is said to improve clarity and smooth out hop bitterness and get the wort closer to the environment that the yeast thrive in
I've heard that sometimes a yeast blend will help acheive your goal. I dont know what my goal is, but I have two packs of 2308 and two of 2352, so what the heck. Maybe it will be the newest thing to do. Then people can argue that its awesome though they've never tried it LOL.
This will also be my first try with a lager with the 1LO2HK starters. The method works awesome for me on ales, so here goes nothing.

Standby for results



1190
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Playing around with final beer pH
« on: November 14, 2015, 10:25:18 PM »
For convenience, here are screen shots of Kai's charts


1191
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Playing around with final beer pH
« on: November 14, 2015, 10:08:21 PM »
One other thing regarding the accuracy issue while im thinking of it. My pH meter only goes to tenths. So my pH reading of 5.3 is actually 5.3(?) because I have no idea how many hundredths. So it might be 5.39 and then I adjust and it reads 5.2 but its actually 5.21 pH.  Thats a drop of 1.7 not 1. On the other hand, I might get an initial reading of 5.3, add the acid and its still 5.3 and I say "what? No change?" But maybe the initial was actually 5.39 and now its 5.31.  And remember that Kai's chart shows a sliding scale. My numbers are just the middle point of that scale.

The amounts per pound grain bill are just fairways and greens, not guaranteed holes in one. The meter is just there to double check. Go by taste.

1192
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Playing around with final beer pH
« on: November 14, 2015, 09:49:01 PM »
The figure for adjustment with 88% lactic is ~.1 5 ml per pound grain bill.

Interesting - the amount used to adjust is based off the size of the grain bill only? I'd love to have the formula dialed in to avoid having to goose it little by little.

I'm feeling good about mashing at 5.4-5.5, dropping the kettle pH to 5.3, then potentially minor tweaks in the final. Only variable left is understanding more the desired final pH in different styles. May have to start taking more readings and work on a spreadsheet.
I had that mental struggle too. What? No volume concern? But I think that its looking at buffering capacity vs acid added. The compounds from the grain buffer, water not so much. So obviously its talking about pounds per grain in whatever the total volume is. In other words, if you had 10lbs in 5 gallons, its calling for 1.5 ml Lactic to drop .1 pH. So if you were only going to acidify half of the volume, you'd use half of the required acid. Total volume would only play into it on a much larger scale or really high RA water, where the water would then start to buffer the acid too.

Something to keep in mind is that this is not like a topographical grid map with a GPS. Its more like a hand drawn map that is somewhat to scale with a magnetic compass. What I would maybe try is, say you have 5 gallons of APA in a keg, the grain bill was 12 lbs in a 6 gallon batch... and the pH is currently 5.4 and it tastes a little dull and you'd like to try it at 5.3 pH. 12 x .15ml is 1.8ml lactic for 6 gallons. 5/6 = .83 × 1.8 = 1.5ml and if you want to try it in a pint thats 1/40th of that.. or ~.04 ml in the pint. When its right, dose the keg. Keep in mind that its only 4.75 gallons now. (I used lactic in this math example, but phosphoric is what I prefer for dosing nonsour beers. That would be 12 x 1.75 = 21 ml 10% phosphoric for 6 gallons. 21x.83 = 17.4 ml for 5 gallons. Or .87ml for a pint. Much easier to measure that amount and 10% phosphoric may have less chance of a negative flavor impact that 88% lactic.

Honestly I think thats getting more nitpicky than we can detect by taste... I've been having good luck moving it .1 at a time then retasting once its homogeneous.

But post your findings please.

Also, this might make an interesting triangle test for Denny and Drew at some point

1193
Beer Recipes / Re: The Czech Pils I'm making today...
« on: November 14, 2015, 08:54:37 PM »
Monday night I'm brewing german-style. So ive been doing some study. I was going to mash at 5.3, which I'm sure would be fine, but I heard that a german technique is to mash at ~5.5 to boost enzyme activity, and supposedly help clarity, then manually adjust post-mash/pre-boil to ~5.0 so I'm going to give that a go. Also step mashing so I can either be pleasantly surprised, or be able to say from experience that its not for me.

Side note, I used to think that Czech Pils wasn't german till someone pointed out that the CR used to be Bohemia... I've never been there so I can't say that for sure LOL

All true, except Bohemia was never part of Germany. Unless you count 1938-1945.   ;)
It gets confusing, huh? For example, I am Alsace-Lorraine German, which is in France.

1194
The Pub / Re: Just a great brew day
« on: November 14, 2015, 08:45:15 PM »
Good job Steve!


1195
Beer Recipes / Re: The Czech Pils I'm making today...
« on: November 14, 2015, 06:33:04 PM »
Does German style require lederhosen?

Or would that be Austrian style?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Probably, or just no hosen at all

1196
Beer Recipes / Re: The Czech Pils I'm making today...
« on: November 14, 2015, 04:33:50 PM »
Monday night I'm brewing german-style. So ive been doing some study. I was going to mash at 5.3, which I'm sure would be fine, but I heard that a german technique is to mash at ~5.5 to boost enzyme activity, and supposedly help clarity, then manually adjust post-mash/pre-boil to ~5.0 so I'm going to give that a go. Also step mashing so I can either be pleasantly surprised, or be able to say from experience that its not for me.

Side note, I used to think that Czech Pils wasn't german till someone pointed out that the CR used to be Bohemia... I've never been there so I can't say that for sure LOL

1197
Beer Recipes / Re: Commission brew/Blue Moon style beer
« on: November 14, 2015, 04:26:05 PM »
Grams not oz. when I homebrewed this recipe I used about 2-3 leaves per 5 gallons. A little goes a long way and you can get a very unpleasant aftertaste if you use too much. Also, there is a higher utilization of ingredients on larger batches such as hops/spices. I don't know why exactly that is but it doesn't always scale so you will have to find your balance.
Thanks again Keith

1198
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Mash Hopping
« on: November 14, 2015, 04:14:00 PM »
I'm going to say no, or not enough to make any difference.  I measure pH like a lot lately. The pH shift between preboil and post boil doesn't seem to be corollary to hops. On one occasion I get a .2 pH drop during the boil, usually little to no drop. I think that first noticed .2 pH drop may have been operator error. Anyway, results seem to be fairly the same regardless of hopping rates or AAUs. So if 4 extra ounces of simcoe/mosaic dont change the boil pH, I doubt that a couple ounces of hops changes the mash pH.

Think about it this way. Supposedly, .15ml of 88% Lactic per pound of grain bill will drop .1 pH. So in a 10 pound grain bill thats 1.5 ml to drop .1 pH. Lactic is a weak acid, i assume that hop acids are too. But 88% is quit a strong concentration compared to 4-15%, not to mention utilization... even at a boil, hop acids are not being utilized anywhere near how the 88% lactic is being utilized. I dont have a clue how readily hop acids give up hydrogen ions, but I have a feeling its not on the same level as lactic. It seems too that a lot of us who add hops at whirlpool in ~170F for 30 minutes aren't detecting any additional bitterness from the acids. At a <160F mash there probably is near zero utilization.

1199
All Grain Brewing / Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« on: November 14, 2015, 04:00:56 PM »
A short rest - say 10 to 20 minutes - at 131-134ish will not hurt body or foam because it is out of the highly active range of peptidase, which breaks medium proteins into small proteins and amino acids. With continental Pilsner malt around a protein level of 10-10.5% and a kolbach index of 38-41, you may see a reduction in chill haze as well as better foam and body due to the activity of proteinase, which breaks large proteins (the ones that cause chill haze) into medium chain proteins.

I use a 10 minute rest at 131 and definitely see a reduction in chill haze vs when I don't. I know Gordon Strong does the same thing for the same reasons.

The only time a protein rest is not recommended is when the kolbach index is over 41. Most US and UK malts fall into this category.
Best says their pils kobalch is 36-45. Do you average that? Or do you have to know the number for your specific lot of malt?

When I contacted them about the need for a protein rest they said it wasn't needed for their Pils malt but if you have problems try doughing in low and immediately raise slowly to your first beta rest. This what I've been doing with good results.
Awesome thanks

1200
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Playing around with final beer pH
« on: November 14, 2015, 03:56:53 PM »
The figure for adjustment with 88% lactic is ~.1 5 ml per pound grain bill.

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