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Messages - klickitat jim

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676
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: January 06, 2016, 09:13:05 AM »
Hey Jim,


Before you give up on the 3-step mash, you might give the grain-in temp of 148F a try. I have been exploring lagers as well, but also using the hochkurz styled step mash for a while with saisons. I have settled somewhere around this schedule: (1) grain-in at 148F, hold for 45 minutes, (2) step to 160F, hold for 20-30 minutes, (3) step to mash out at 170F for 10 minutes. I am finding repeatable results with good foam creation and retention, as well as a repeatable low to medium body. For saisons I target 5.2 mash pH and for light lagers I target 5.4 and have not found the need to lower the kettle pH - in both cases the boil naturally drops to below 5.1, indicated by large fluffy hot break formation.


The goal (in my case) was to eliminate specialty malts, such as carapils and melanoiden, and match their needs with technique and base malt adjustments - based on some highly nit-picky but trusted feedback. Your testing and feedback has gone WAY further than mine, but I can say that (me, anecdotal, personal confirmation bias accepted) I prefer the 'naked' recipe with the step schedule above to the same recipe infusion mashed at 152 or 154F, even with the additional time it added to the brew day. I compared these with saisons, and I should do the same with a lager. I have absolutely nothing against cara-xyz nor melanoiden.

I didn't see or missed discussion on water chemistry, and wonder if some of the issues are with liquor alkalinity. The requirement of 7 mil of 88% lactic acid suggests your water alkalinity may be excessive. Have you tried this cutting with RO? How much lactic in the mash?


These kinds of discussion really make me want a Zymatic to simplify batch to batch testing.
Matt I'll sure keep that in mind. My water is too high for these styles to be done right. I'm switching to building water for these and have a plan in place. More on this when the next round results are available.

Are you accomplishing your steps by decoction, addition, or direct heat? I used direct heat w/recirculation to avoid scorching.

677
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Mistakes, Learned From
« on: January 06, 2016, 07:41:02 AM »
And here's a new one. My full kegs caught up with me lately so I had 4 kegs literally stuffed into my little lagering/conditioning chest freezer set to 38º. No problem. Until last night. I brough in my keg of Red X Mandarina to tap and discovered it was frozen. That keg was in the corner of the chest freezer and touching two walls must have been too much for it. I figured that overnight in the kegerator would thaw it but nope. So I pulled it out to sit at room temperature for the day. One side is covered in a thin layer of frost now lol. Lesson learned, I can only fit 3 kegs in my lagering chest... Im hoping for an unexpectedly awesome beer once it thaws, returns to serving temp, and equalizes carbonation.

And, who knows, a missed opportunity: you could have created the first Eisbocked Red X Mandarina :(
Sounds almost familiar

678
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Mistakes, Learned From
« on: January 06, 2016, 07:18:14 AM »
And here's a new one. My full kegs caught up with me lately so I had 4 kegs literally stuffed into my little lagering/conditioning chest freezer set to 38º. No problem. Until last night. I brough in my keg of Red X Mandarina to tap and discovered it was frozen. That keg was in the corner of the chest freezer and touching two walls must have been too much for it. I figured that overnight in the kegerator would thaw it but nope. So I pulled it out to sit at room temperature for the day. One side is covered in a thin layer of frost now lol. Lesson learned, I can only fit 3 kegs in my lagering chest... Im hoping for an unexpectedly awesome beer once it thaws, returns to serving temp, and equalizes carbonation.

679
I have a club of 1, but i meet frequently.  I've only met one other home brewer from my county. My closest LHBS is an hour away in another State. They have a club but every time I look at their "next club meeting date" its about 6 months ago. When they decide to get active, I'm always working that night.

This forum helps make up the difference,  but it makes doing blind triangle tests and troubleshooting sessions a little expensive. My Rube Goldberg thing cost me $50 but well worth it!

680
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: January 06, 2016, 06:15:20 AM »
Jim-
Perhaps letting a more trub through into primary might help arrest the low level ester formation?

I'd really like to hear what Mark S. Cerevisiae's comments on ester production.
I hope he chimes in.
I'm going to say maybe. There's just too many things in home brewing where a little bit is great, but too much is either unnecessary or negative. When I rack to the fermenter im careful but not overly so. There's always a little getting through. I wonder though, with a MH if I just dumped the whole thing in the fermenter if all that hop material would end up pushing the flavor and aroma too far.

Mark is gone, apparently deleted his account.  I vaguely recall him being a fan of some trub getting through in his English Pale Ales.

In any event, I'll try the slightly lower temp next time.

681
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: January 05, 2016, 08:31:10 PM »
Roger

682
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: January 05, 2016, 08:18:17 PM »
Doesn't Mark always say to ferment all starters at room temps or so?  Especially lager starters to help increase their biomass which is more effectively completed at warmer temps.  That is the problem I have with the shaken not stirred for lagers. 

If you ferment them at warm temps for the starter (i.e. 65-70F) to build more biomass, doesn't this produce some esters which in turn are then pitched into the whole batch? 

And if you decide to ferment the lager starter cooler (i.e. 50-52F) to reduce ester production, then doesn't this decrease biomass production which in turn can lead to under pitching?

Looking at the link from Steve below, the author stated that the formation of esters was biphasic:

"Timing of Ester Synthesis
Thurston34 has suggested that during fermentation there are
two inductions of ester synthesis. At the beginning of ferment
ation, ester synthesis is very slow due to the high metabolic
demand for acetyl CoA for yeast growth33-39. At this time
oxygen and acetyl CoA are rapidly consumed in production of
unsaturated fatty acids and sterols. Immediately following this
an equilibrium is established between acetyl CoA consumption
for fatty acid and sterol synthesis and for ester production. This
represents the first induction of ester synthesis and occurs after
about 8 hours of fermentation. When fatty acid and sterol
synthesis finally stop there is a peak in cellular acetyl CoA levels
and also in the acetyl charge (the ratio between [acctyl-CoAJ
and [acetyl CoA + CoASH]) and at this point the second
induction of ester synthesis occurs. This happens about the
midpoint of fermentation (between 20 and 30 h) and is rela
tively short-lived33-34-37. However, it does contribute signi
ficantly to the overall ester level. At the point of maximum
specific rate of ethyl acetate synthesis about 80% of the
CoASH is in the acetyl form34."

Maybe this is why you can get away with room Temp starters for lagers if you pitch them early enough?
Generic "you"? Or do you mean me?

683
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: January 05, 2016, 05:14:54 PM »
I can't think what the opposite of Rube Goldberg is...

KISS?
Has a ring to it

684
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Mistakes, Learned From
« on: January 05, 2016, 03:58:11 PM »
Just a couple weeks ago, I set my scale to tare zero, but didn't notice it was set to kg, rather than pounds and ounces...I caught the mistake when I saw how much grain I had for a simple 10 gallon pilsner batch....almost made a Maibock!
Dang, you should have kept on trucking. That would probably have been the best Maibock ever.

685
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: January 05, 2016, 03:39:16 PM »
I'm about a week or so away from re-brew day. I think I should start a new thread but I can't think what the opposite of Rube Goldberg is... what I will probably do is brew them, ship off to Steve (volunteered for re-review) and Randy if he's up to it, and then once all the data is in I will make one long final post with the final recipes and judge remarks.

686
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: January 05, 2016, 07:53:12 AM »
I'll bet there's plenty. Not like I'm filtering.

687
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Do you clean before AND after brewing?
« on: January 05, 2016, 06:46:11 AM »
I brew in my shop. In the spring through fall my brewery gets in the way if I dont put it away after brewing. I clean before putting it away. Cleaning the brewery consists of rinsing everything, filling the BK with water, heating to ~130º, adding Oxyclean and hitting the recirculation pump. MLT and HLT just get a rinse. BK recircs for 30min, then drain and rinse. Then filled with cool water and I add Starsan which gets recirculated. I do that to shine the immersion chiller and sanitize the pump and lines. While doing all that I'm cleaning odds and ends like lids, spoon, autosyphon, test equipment,  etc.

After long brew days I might just rinse, and finish cleaning the next day, or following weekend depending on schedule.

Kegs get a thorough cleaning and filled with 12.5% Iodophor on a day off sometime before I need them.

Bottles get rinsed and set aside until I have enough for a full case. Then I do a thorough Oxyclean soak, scrub, rinse. On bottling day I rinse again, then they get a Starsan dip and put on a sanitized bottling tree.

Overall, I've found that cleaning always takes X amount of time and its never better easier better or faster to wait.

688
All Grain Brewing / Re: Whirlpool/ 0 Minute Addition Difference
« on: January 05, 2016, 06:30:22 AM »
Wow, that would be a great comparison - but do you give college credits for this full semester class?  Lol.
Yes. Actually I'll give them in advance,  just tell your college admin to add them to your thing. However many you feel is appropriate.

689
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« on: January 05, 2016, 06:22:40 AM »
No, no relation to hops that I can think of, particularly for noble/noble-type hops (Mittlefruh?)

I am wondering about how well Jim aerated and how much trub he had going into the fermenter:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1990.tb01039.x/epdf
Very little trub, I chill with a jamil style IC with pumped recirculation,  then kill the pump and give 15 min to settle, then rack with an autosyphon.

I oxygenate through a sintered stone and lagers get 90 seconds minimum

690
Kegging and Bottling / Re: bottlng reusing cork and cages..
« on: January 04, 2016, 05:53:22 PM »
I sure wouldnt.

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