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Messages - klickitat jim

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The Pub / Re: Shipping Unshippables
« on: April 08, 2016, 01:25:07 PM »
Shipping my first beer package. I'm labeling it from my law firm with a big notice that the contents are privileged by attorney-client relationship. Can't wait to see how that goes over when I drop it off.

Well, I think the Belgian yeast covers up anything you'll be able to reliably tell, although 66 tastes could tell, which I thought was staggering.

Maybe, maybe not.  Most Belgian breweries step mash, and they think it makes a difference.

Now, the amount of crystal malt used in the recipe might mask any potential differences.  I think it's a bit of a busy grain bill for a blonde.

Or maybe that's just the way they've always done it.

Yeah, I personally have no opinion of whether it's worth it.  But every Belgian brewer I've talked to thinks it does make a difference, regardless of why they do it.  It is definitely tradition, though.

But I disagree that you can't taste subtle malt complexities in a Belgian beer.  If you can't, you're doing it wrong (like many American takes on the styles).
Doing it wrong, LOL.

Its true though. When I first tasted Pilsner Urquell I was familiar with pale lagers but PU had something different. That clean crackery pils malt flavor. Then the first time I tried Leffe Blond all I got was clovey phenolic,  but one day I tried the Blond next to PU and dang if I wasnt able to pick out the pils malt in the Blond. That was a step toward learning how to see past the dominant feature.

Beer Recipes / Re: Belgian Red X
« on: April 08, 2016, 01:12:24 PM »
I think its more like a 12ºL Vienna

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: How to ship homebrew?
« on: April 07, 2016, 10:35:28 PM »
Fick! Been a while
Since ive seen you post anyway...

I figured the purported extra body created by step mashing would be from unfermentable sugars. If its not that, does anyone know what it is? And how the step mash creates it but single infusion doesn't?

Look up glycoproteins, supposedly released at mash temps around 160.  Kai touches on them briefly, and they are mentioned in some other sources I have seen.

Edit: Below is the relevant page from Kai's site.

"Narziss [Narziss, 2005] and Fix [Fix, 1999] suggest, that a rest at 158 - 162 *F (70 - 72 *C) benefits head retention and body of the beer though glycoproteides that are extracted from the malt but not degraded by enzymatic activity. Because of that Narziss suggests holding this rest up to 60 min."
Interesting!  I'd read that before and purged it lol. I think my take away originally was that the higher temp step was for body. So apparently glycoproteides are not considered a sugar and would not be measurable with a hydrometer?

Maybe I worded it wrong. Suppose two identical beers. One single infusion at 152F. The other with a step mash. If the step mash beer has more body, how is that happening if its not residual unfermented sugars?

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Can't Decide What Brew Next
« on: April 07, 2016, 07:17:44 PM »
I'm really curious how a pale American lager might be if made with quality ingredients, as opposed to cheap ingredients.
I'm thinking no adjunct, 1.050 from Bestmalz Pils, about 25 IBUs from Crystal, around 2.7 volumes. Would that qualify?

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Can't Decide What Brew Next
« on: April 07, 2016, 06:25:08 PM »
I kind of follow the seasons. Winter is easier to chill lagers to pitching temp, and 50F is less work on the old heat pad to control temp than 65F is. Spring I start moving toward Pale Ale, and this year some IPAs. Then as weather warms its Saison, then American Wild in the summer. Fall brings Stout and Amber, and we're back to winter again

Homebrew Competitions / Re: Remaining NHC sites
« on: April 07, 2016, 06:11:35 PM »
In any given year, it is entirely possible that all 12 competition will occur on the same weekend.  If this is the organizers' choices, then that is the way the competition will happen.  Keep in mind that not all 12 competition winners lists will be posted simultaneously since the results must be verified by me and John Moorhead before each winners list is posted.

If you don't mind giving people a peek behind the curtain, could you elaborate a little on the verification process?  Some people seem to question what takes so long to verify.  I'm assuming it involves at least going through summary sheets to verify the places entered match what was entered into the system as well as verifying that the entries that placed met the minimum score to advance.  Any other info you're willing to provide would be great.
Just a guess that they also verify the entrant is in fact an AHA member. That they paid, I suppose.   It would be embarrassing to have someone win ninkasi just to find out later they aren't qualified to enter.

I figured the purported extra body created by step mashing would be from unfermentable sugars. If its not that, does anyone know what it is? And how the step mash creates it but single infusion doesn't?

I have not done blind tests, but I don't really feel the need to. Enzymes work best at different temperatures and a 150F rest isn't doing the best for beta and alpha enzymes. Separate rests are best. But I guess if you don't care to spend a little extra time then don't. That's why this hobby is great, we can put into it what we want to get out of it.
A 150F rest isn't doing the best what? Separate rests are best at what? Why?

I get that the enzymes do different things, but none work in a vacuum. Why is it better to have alpha and beta active separately, rather than together? And how are you sure that alpha isn't having a significant effect down at beta rest range before you ramp up? Modern malts have a crap-ton of enzymatic activity, and even if it's at a lower rate there's a good chance that alpha-amylase is still gobbling away well enough just by sheer enzymatic content at beta rest temps. And frankly, alpha amylase activity will certainly improve beta amylase's effectiveness, by exposing more 1-4 bonds for beta to act on.

I think you have to be really cautious to start extrapolating scientific facts, given how complex the chemistry of wort and beer production is. You can make all the claims you want, but they are really just unproven hypotheses until you back it up with data.
I have to agree on Eric's point about the complex dynamic nature of the mash, especially with high DP malts. We like to compartmentalize and simplify things, but that's only happening on paper for our linear ability to consciously think of one thing at a time. To consciously think of the mash in reality would sound like a room full of people all talking at the same time. In studying Troester's work, the part of decoction that made sense was the breaking down of more starch trapped in matrix, and then introducing those starches back to a now hotter mash so they can be converted to long chain sugars. You convert short chain in a beta rest, then decotion, then convert the new exposed starches to long chain. But I'm not very convinced that its happening very effectively, if at all, in a step mash where trapped starches aren't really exposed to the rigors of boiling and stiring.

Personally, im not experiencing much difference in my single infusion mashes between 148-152. I need to be up around 156 before I see a distinct measurable change in final gravity. (When I brew two near-identical beers with just mash temps different) I've done a grand total of two step mashes, so Im not an expert, but I didnt find that the high temp A rest did anything for residual sugars/body. Its possible if not likely that I held the B rest too long. That being said, regardless of body difference, I found no difference in flavor as compared to a single infusion. And in the end I found that 5% of Weyermann CaraHell, and acidifying with phosphoric rather than lactic, made the most positive flavor changing than any of the special techniques I had tried. (German Lagers) I also found that FWHing was the final fix for my hopping. (Water profile is a whole other thing and makes a big difference)

Summary, you can get there with ingredients

These are just my personal views. I'm not anti step mash, anti decoction, and I keep an open enough mind that I may try those techniques again some day, and may entirely change my tune.

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Is extract brewing patriotic?
« on: April 07, 2016, 11:41:08 AM »
My LHBS is Keller's in The Dalles, Oregon, (~16000 pop) and has 1 employee (the owner). A random guess is about $900 for rent, and maybe $300 for utilities etc. He probably does his own books. He drives to Portland about every other week for a supply run on heavy items, glass/grain. If we figured $1500 overhead...?

I buy 55lb sacks of Simpsons GP and Best Pils for under $70 if memory serves. Hops vary from $16-24 per pound. Yeast is $7. So on just ingredients it seems like he would need a pretty good pile of regular customers. A ball park estimate, I probably spend around $100 a month there. Sometimes nothing, sometimes its $500 to get out of the door.
I like Keller's too.  But the Dalles is 110 miles east west.  Fortunately the owner visits relatives in my area about every 3-4 months and will deliver brew supplies.

Rick? Or the old owner Larry?

Feeling the Den!

General Homebrew Discussion / COHO Springfling
« on: April 06, 2016, 10:35:50 PM »
Shipping off my entries tomorrow. I was looking at their website. Cool grand prize for BOS! Brewing a batch of beer, at your home, on your brewery, with Ninkasi founder Jamie Floyd! How fun would that be?

Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Confessions of a Yeast Abuser
« on: April 06, 2016, 04:29:35 PM »
I abust yeast regularly and love my results. It's the only thing that I pretty much ignore advice on for the types of beers I brew. Very surprised that my lager yeast abuse has created such fine beers IMHO...
I fear I qualify as a yeast abuser do to abandoned stirplates, and pitching entire 1L starters, even to "It" beers.

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