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Messages - Phil_M

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The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: July 14, 2019, 01:09:40 PM »
Wow, I opened a can of worms!  Guess I wasn't aware that "maker" had acquired this negative sense.  When I quoted it I was thinking in terms more like the way Visor and AzBruin are using it.  A sense that it had a decade or more ago when it first appeared on my radar.   Like a DIYer, but more of an inventive, resourceful, junkyard engineering, tinkering sort.  Oops, now "tinkering" is probably a semantic landmine.  But I thought this was a sensibility that was coming back around, as things do every couple of generations.  Pendulum swings.

I think it mostly has a negative connotation because of how many tend to refuse help from knowledgeable sources and instead rely upon unverified bad advice, often from the internet.

If you consider yourself a maker and you don't fall into that trap, then I have no beef with you.

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: July 14, 2019, 03:39:08 AM »
I disagree with your put downs on "makers". I consider myself a "maker" because I prefer to do most things myself. I won't let anyone work on my car, if it needs something, I do it. I make my own furniture. I can my own food. I make my own beer. I facet gemstones and make jewelry. My lifelong day job is repairing aircraft.
I am not a millennial, I'm a bit over 60. You might say I'm a jack of all trades, including carpentry, masonry, electrical, plumbing, and HVAC.
I do all these things because they need doing, and I get satisfaction from doing them myself. And, if something is not up to snuff, I don't have anyone else to blame.

Rant off. Time for another stout.

See, you're saying maker, but what I'm hearing is Renaissance man. Half the issue with the average person dubbed a "maker" is they do a only somewhat passable job at best, or do a job that only relates to something of little practical value, like movie props or cosplay.

Why I tend to put "makers" forward with a somewhat negative connotation is a direct result of many I've encountered who aren't willing to put in the time to become proficient.

FWIW, I do all my own vehicle maintenance as well, up to and including pulling transmissions and swapping engines. I've got an LS I'm pulling now in fact, recipient vehicle is still TBS. Just finished some work on my Camaro that should have it in the high 11's.

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: July 12, 2019, 11:51:32 PM »
Every generation has had Makers and Hipsters and every other type of ers. Just called them something different is all. Every new generation pisses off the older ones. That’s their job and that’s the way it should be. Embrace it.

True, but as a millennial myself I think this is different. Yes every generation hates on the next...but honestly this whole maker thing is more based on delusion than a "yall's music today sucks" kinda thing.

This is how I see it:
A maker, with a four year business degree and a good job graduates from Estes rockets to making rockets from scratch thinks he's actually accomplishing something to benefit the space age. Compare and contrast that with the guy who is apprenticed as a tech and at the same age is in community college working on his ASE using an Estes rocket to model trajectory for his Dynamics course...

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: July 12, 2019, 08:36:36 PM »
When I hear the term "Maker", i conjure up an image of someone who tinkers around but never sticks with something long enough to get past the basics and into the science.

Basically, continual apprentices.

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: July 12, 2019, 02:37:14 AM »
First off, let me second Derek's opinion that this is The Pub, and anything here needs to be taken in proper context. Furthermore if you're on this subforum, aren't working/about to drive, and don't have a beer in your're at least more likely to take things the wrong way.

EDIT2: The other trouble with the inevitable low traffic that is happening (not just here but everywhere except for Facebook) is that the only folks who seem to want to stick around on forums like this one are either A) Noobs, or B) the ones with the strongest and most vocal opinions.  And inevitably, the B folks will quickly scare away all the A.  There will always be noobs but they'll never want to stick around as they can't grasp all the concepts and arguments, and certainly don't want to put up with our sh1t.

I consider myself a realist.  Not a pessimist.  Realist.  This is reality.

But I digress, sorry.

I'm sorry, but this is an issue not just related to beer. I'm a Senior Engineering Technician, a team lead, and a Millennial (I'm 32, FWIW.) I started as an apprentice and worked me way up, and let me say that those in technical fields know: We're brutal to new folks.

It's not that we're assholes...(ok well maybe we are, but we don't intend to be)'s just that if you don't fall in line with the laws of physics you can't work in a technical field. I've got issues hiring personnel because of this: Too few people are willing to "Tough it out and grasp all the concepts and arguments", as dmtaylor so eloquently put it.

Here's why that matters: An apprentice with an opinion generally isn't regarded as well as a higher level tech. It's OK to have a dissenting opinion...but the dissent of an apprentice doesn't carry the same weight as a full tech. (Whose opinion doesn't carry the same weight as a Junior Engineer, whose don't matter vs. a senior tech, and so on...)

Don't see this issue with engineers, because school gets them past the basics point.

And it's the same with beer. Don't believe me? Try convincing a run of the mill craft brewer with cloudy beer that his Pils isn't acceptable because it shouldn't include yeast particles. Someone who grasped the concepts wouldn't have done that unless he had to...the apprentice still thinks "But it's my interpretation of a Pils, so you're wrong."

I don't care about fruit beer, IPA, Lager, whatever. Just please at least TRY and do some study and make it well.

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: July 02, 2019, 12:27:10 PM »

The distributors don't want another IPA or pale ale, or what some would call "normal beer"

The distributors are beholden to/controlled by Big Beer.  One implication of the situation described in this oft quoted and still excellent article

is that Big Beer doesn't want these for good reason: 

They want to control or influence a sufficient segment of what is popularly perceived as definitive, quality "craft" so as to bring its perceived quality (indicated by price point) into relative parity with their core brands, so as to in turn enhance the perceived quality, and hence the actual brand equity, of those mass market brands.  They want to keep independent craft confined to increasingly narrow niches.  Of course they don't want more competition in "normal beer" (I'm just going to use this convenient shorthand you've provided, dzlater.)

It seems to me they are missing a huge opportunity.  While craft, in a very limited niche (or niches,) holds fast -- even growing in certain statistical manipulations like number of brands or dollar sales, but not in actual number of loyal consumers -- beer sales as a whole continue to decline, while wine and spirits and malternatives grow.  I believe this is because the potential growth market in beer is would-be consumers of "normal beer," but not being served, they turn to other adult beverages.   Big Beer doesn't care, they will just invest in those sectors.  (So too increasingly the likes of Boston/DFH.)  Note also that one of the first effects of consolidation of ownership internationally was the disappearance of most of the former imports which might have filled the middle ground between the ephemeral avant garde of craft and the gas station 30 pack.  Again, Big Beer just sees this as a case of well, we have a brand presence in that market, no need to keep shipping stuff across the ocean.

It seems once again that the 3 tier system, intended to protect the consumer from undue influence on the part of brewers, in fact now insulates the brewer from the inconvenient influence of consumer demand.

[EDIT for typo]

Ironically, the best local distributor for Craft beer in my area is the local Bud one. Their rep for their craft brands (the distributor, not Inbev) seems to be the only one who can get us beer even remotely fresh.

Sadly, not a lot of craft brands seem to distribute through them.

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: June 27, 2019, 11:29:35 PM »
Even if you don't have a taste for German beer, still represents everything wrong with the average Craft brewery.

And I'm not trying to hate on fruit beers...just want them shelved differently from "regular" beer. It's be nice to have the regular beer in a easier to pick over area...

Small breweries have a hard enough time just to get a space on the shelf, that what you want would be next to impossible. Big beer sales and delivery people are always pulling crap on us by taking our shelf space or burying our beer. I'm just happy to have any shelf space.

It's not taking any more or less space, just re-arranging existing product...

And around here, s***ty local breweries have displaced some of the stars of craft brewing from shelves...I really miss Anchor Steam, and the old SN Porter...Anything from Saranac, etc.

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: June 27, 2019, 02:07:18 PM »
Radom dirty glass filled to the brim with no head? Check

Crazy ingredients that shouldn’t be in beer? Check

Stupid generic label to entice millennials?

The extract beer I wrote my blog post about?

Even if you don't have a taste for German beer, still represents everything wrong with the average Craft brewery.

And I'm not trying to hate on fruit beers...just want them shelved differently from "regular" beer. It's be nice to have the regular beer in a easier to pick over area...

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: June 19, 2019, 02:24:41 PM »
I'm finding that more and more, enjoyment is my purpose in brewing.  Not the beer, not the equipment just the joy of doing it.

For once Denny and I are in total agreement. With my return to brewing I know I'm not going to make the best beer. (Though it'll still be superior for most Craft swill available these days...)

That's not the goal though. I miss the process. I miss smelling the grain mashing, (Yes, I know that means it's oxidizing) the boil, etc. I miss trying historic techniques. Taking a long break from brewing was a great way to realize what elements I missed, and which ones I did not...

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: June 14, 2019, 11:46:35 PM »
I'm sorry, but there is a point where a fermented malt beverage is no longer beer. Mike's hard being an example. There's a craft brewery that says "malt beverage" rather than beer on the label, was/is it Dominion?

And if drinking malt beverage is your thing, fine. I don't care. I really don't.

Also, far as I can tell, this place IS inclusive. Plenty of posts about mead, wine, sake, etc...why not admit that malt beverages are a part of that? Let's just call them that, that's all I'm asking.

But from what I can tell, craft beer has bought into the Macro race to the bottom. Sickly sweet, gets you buzzed fast, mass market appeal...vs. being true to beer, which is how all this started.

Meanwhile, I just want fresh beer.

Oh, and Denny, I forgot one: Yuengling Golden Pils is an excellent craft lager, I had forgotten that one. Sadly now that it's not new it isn't as popular...and it's harder to find fresh. Still an easier task than most craft beers though.

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: June 13, 2019, 11:59:51 PM »
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.

I second your opinion on some adjuncts being OK, but agree there needs to be a line. And sours aren't evil's just I've never had a craft sour that didn't taste like cheap sour candy...which goes back to the craft beer is becoming sh!it beer thing...just look at freaking Belgium, hell once upon the time they were what we strived for.

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The only craft brewery that's within a reasonable distance of me is known for their award-winning "Helles" and "Festbier".

Both are always sweet, oxidized messes. I can possibly forgive the Fest, as they seem to have been going for an old-style recipe, but Helles needs to be low O2 almost by definition.

Aside from the rare fresh Sierra Nevada lager, no craft brewery that I've ever tried has made even a marginal lager. They've all sucked. As in, the County-default 10oz Bud is a decidedly better choice.

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: June 12, 2019, 12:55:39 PM »
BTW Bryan, you probably don't read Ron Pattinson's blog (Shut up about Barclay Perkins,) but his increasing frustration with trying to find a drinkable, recognizable beer while he is in this country, ironically usually on invitation of craft brewers who want to promote education about traditional beer, would be amusing if it weren't actually quite worrying.  Think he'll blow a gasket soon. Or just go on straight whisk(e)y.

This has an interesting side effect - it pushes people Macro. I'll admit I've been walking past the craft beer straight to the domestic area of the local beer cave...and picking up Miller High Life more often than I ever thought I would. Heineken is another staple, when fresh.

There's just no "normal" beer craft beer available anymore, not fresh anyway. Yuengling and Sam Adams are it.

I know I'm not alone in this sentiment either. The high alcohol content and lack of good simple beers has frustrated several folks I know, most of whom would rather buy craft but instead buy Macro because there isn't a craft option that fits what they're looking for.

The Pub / Re: This has gone far enough!
« on: June 11, 2019, 11:04:43 AM »
I think this would be a much needed change, and if craft beer doesn't get behind it things will get ugly.

Here's why: "Appealing to underage drinkers."

That gets stuck on anything that bucks the norm, and it'll force craft breweries making actual beer that is fruity (NEIPA? Anyone?) to deal with that moniker as well.

I see now that DewClaw has a "Unicorn Fart" beer, with actual glitter, that I'm surprised was allowed to be sold based on how much it appears to be marketed to teens. Sure, it's DewClaw, it's all tongue in cheek...but one teen gets killed driving drunk after drinking it, and every craft brewer will suffer.

Throw these weird non-traditional beer items into another category. Oh wait! We have one: Malt Beverage.

I fail to see the difference between a Mike's Hard and some of the recent swill I see on shelves. Except where it's made. Not judging folks for drinking their preference, but let's call a duck a duck.

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Can Shaped Glass???
« on: June 06, 2019, 10:39:50 AM »

Dunno, with hard crabs or BBQ a disposable drinking vessel is preferred...

...and that's why God made Solo cups.

And yes, the 10-oz can makes Budweiser taste better.)

Well, yeah, the less of it the better!  ;D

More like any beer tastes less when it's ice cold, so by having a smaller can more of the available supply is still chilling in the cooler.

Honestly, I wish craft beers came in a 10 oz. size. I don't want a bomber of 10% ABV stout...but a four pack of 10 oz. cans sounds better.

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Can Shaped Glass???
« on: June 05, 2019, 09:33:30 PM »

Dunno, with hard crabs or BBQ a disposable drinking vessel is preferred...

...and that's why God made Solo cups.

Seems the obvious answer, but we've never bothered. Drink of choice with hard crabs in my family is Heineken, in either the can or the bottle. (As opposed to the SMC-only 10-oz canned Budweiser, which is the local "correct" beer for crabs...and what the other side of my family prefers. And yes, the 10-oz can makes Budweiser taste better.)

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