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Messages - Kit B

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Beer Recipes / Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« on: November 13, 2015, 09:53:27 AM »

Jim is talking about the direct fired step mash, no?

That was an explanation of my own confusion, when I posted that some brewers mash for longer.
Not saying he needs to do a decoction.

Beer Recipes / Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« on: November 13, 2015, 08:21:22 AM »

The Hochkurz step mash is less time, since you aren't bringing the thick part to a boil.

When I think of a Hochkurz, I'm thinking of a full-on Hochkurz double decoction.

Direct fired step mashing is a different ball game that I can't do, yet.

Beer Recipes / Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« on: November 13, 2015, 07:27:38 AM »
So, Kai's chart of the hichkurz showing it taking a total of 3 hours... way too long I take it? Is that just old info thats not accurate anymore? Seemed long to me.

Some brewers even go much longer.
Kai's version is a pretty middle-of-the-road version.

Beer Recipes / Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« on: November 13, 2015, 07:02:12 AM »
I gather that unless I brew your beer your way its wrong. But Im not hearing WHY from anyone. Im curious, is that how all Munich Helles are brewed in Munich? Same recipe, same water, same method, all beer is exactly the same? Seems goose-steppy to me.

Im trying to learn something here, and it sure seems like I'm hearing my Dad bark at me that I'm not doing it right with no indication of what right is, or why. Frankly, I may just decide that im done with trying to brew german beers if this is a harbinger of things to come.

I mentioned "IT" tongue in cheek at the end of that post. I should clarify, I don't beleive in IT as an articulable thing because no one can describe IT. Not to mention that if IT is supposed to be in every beer style in Germany, including smoke beers, dark beers, light beers, ales, sour beers... than IT is an emotion or some elitist mind set. So obviously I am not trying to create something I dont beleive exists. If someone can describe IT, I may change my mind.

Deep breaths... im not asking for a clone recipe, or trying to get jumped into a beer gang. I'm just looking for a little more insight on this step mash thing.

Please, don't think that anyone is telling you that your way is wrong.
Here's the situation...
A bunch of us have spent years chasing this.
We've worked together & shared notes...
We've tried countless mash schedules, grain bills, hopping schedules, etc.
We know which things we have tried that simply do not work.
We know several combinations of things that simply do not work.
No one is telling you that you HAVE to brew this way, or you're wrong.
The approach we are taking is to say, here...Let's eliminate the stuff we've tried that doesn't work.

I believe Brandon said it best, when he described IT, like this:

The 5 elements of “it” in German light lagers.

1)   Aroma and first impressions
It: Fresh malt and hop aroma – sign of good things to come. Very clean, slightly sweet but refreshing
Not it: No aroma. Metallic, plastic, organic off aroma coming from the glass. Or overwhelming, cloying malt aroma, or strong, pungent hop aroma overwhelming the malt.

2)   Getting intimate - First Taste
It: the “it” we refer to – fresh grain, depth of character and bright notes of a fresh field of grain and flowers. Sometimes spicy, particularly with Czech and East German Pilsners. But clean and balanced with the malt. Sometimes a minerally, salty impression from East German examples.
Not it: Dull, single dimension of malt. It’s there, but not light, fresh and rich. Overwhelming hoppiness as either flavor or strong bitterness.

3)   Balance of character
It: the overall impression is of balance between malt, bitterness and hop flavor. Often floral, slightly sweet, and grainy. Rich, bright grainy flavor.
Not it: Dull and flat, one dimension maltiness. Like old malt or darker malt that is heavy on the palate. Or muddy, overly complex flavors as from too many malts.

4)   Mouthfeel
It: Clean, crisp mouthfeel. Refreshing and you want to take another sip. Clears out quickly.
Not it: Either thick and sweet or dry, puckering and thin.

5)   Finish - Ahhhhh
It: briefly lingering malt flavor and aroma. If you lightly exhale your breath and sniff, you get fresh malt graininess, a bit of hop aroma, and depth of aging character, slight lingering note of sulfur.
Not it: Cloying sweetness or astringent dryness, almost bitter. Lingering hop bitterness that hangs in your mouth for a long time. Yeast bi

Beer Recipes / Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« on: November 13, 2015, 06:50:43 AM »
I'd like to know WHY this length or that length. If I was just looking to be told what to do to clone a german beer, id just go buy one.

Hahaha...You sound like me, in that other thread!

All Grain Brewing / Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« on: November 13, 2015, 06:46:28 AM »
A protein rest may not be necessary, but there are other benefits to other lower rest temperatures.

Equipment and Software / Re: Reverse osmosis systems
« on: November 12, 2015, 09:22:51 PM »
I would recommend a system from Air, Water, Ice.

I have a Typhoon III 150 gpd system & love it.
(The deionization portion is not necessary & rarely gets used.)
I bought a 30 gallon bladder tank on another site (actually holds 18 gallons) & ran a line to my kitchen, to supply drinking water.

To further derail... For the curious, do you know the equations (or have a link to them) for calculating boiling water additions for such a step mash?

Here's a good start, for you:

Thanks. I know I've seen these before.  :)

Unfortunately, I think something in the formula given might be lacking.
For sure, the specific heat & mass of your vessel are missing, but that's usually a small factor.
To me, there also seems to be a comparison portion of the formula missing.
I'll have to dig some more.
But, that information will get you extremely close.

I find it interesting you chose the word pompous.

What's more interesting is that the guy that was touting his professionalism was the first to start calling names, such as "zealot" & "self righteous", way back in this thread.

You were right, when you said "It's BEER".
But, some people take their brewing more seriously than you.
It's just the way of the world.
Different strokes, for different folks.
If you're OK with mediocre...That's cool.
But, please don't tell me that my quest for real information is wrong.

Some people prefer more seriousness in the things they set out to teach or learn.
I, for one, would like to learn from sources that takes my thirst for proven practices & concrete knowledge
I don't want someone to just sell me kits, "stuff" & equipment.
I think it's extremely sad that today's brewing culture has turned into the search for an answer to:
"How can I make a buck off this hobby?".

Some of us just expect more than flawed experiments & mediocre beers.
Some are on a quest to brew something that stands up to the real thing, from the real brewers...
Not something that is simply "a good beer" that seems close to another "good beer".

It's fine with me that you are not on that quest.
Is it fine with you that I am?

Sounds like another XBmt to be undertaken....Marshall???

Is seems to me that if an XBMT is done, there should be some criteria set up, in advance.
Maybe something like:
1) Simple grain bill...Say, maybe 95% Pilsner & 5% assorted cara grains, as decided by ____
(all the same German ingredients...No Briess, Rahr, or other North American/UK/Belgian substitutions)

2) Comparison of:
 a) Single Infusion
 b) Multiple Rest Infusion
 c) Multiple Rest HERMS/RIMS
 d) Multiple Rest Decoction
(Maybe, also compare single infusions, at different temperatures?)
(All Multiple rest mashes should be comparable...Let's compare apples to apples.)

3) Same hop schedules in all recipes

4) Same yeasts used, in all recipes

5) Similar chilling temperatures

6) Similar pitch & fermentation temperatures

In the end, these should all be compared & weighed against a classic example, to see where they fall short & how they are close.

But, heck...I'm just spitballing here.
There are a lot of experts here, far more qualified to figure this out, than I am.

To further derail... For the curious, do you know the equations (or have a link to them) for calculating boiling water additions for such a step mash?

Here's a good start, for you:

Sounds like more a dogmatic philosophy than anything else, I'm cool with that- call it what you want, it tastes like a Helles :)

Out of curiosity, what would you say are the factors that set it apart from other light lagers/ales & makes it resemble a Munich helles, specifically?

Real Kolsch is only made in Koln.  It is an appellation.

If your palate can't tell the difference, a helles is a helles.

But...Not a 'Munich Helles'.

How is it a helles when its brewed with a kolsch yeast?
Oh, Bryan, just let it be.

I always thought that maybe the Aussies just had terrible palates... I guess this sort of confirms that, while this method doesn't produce bad beer, it doesn't produce the best possible beer.

It's hard to let it be, when he's now partnered with a homebrew supply company & will be pawning his nonsense off as beer kits that are sold as 'Munich Helles'.
That, to me, is bothersome.
It's not a Munich Helles...
It's a light ale.

All Grain Brewing / Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« on: October 08, 2015, 07:31:49 AM »
Yep...Thanks...We've been in discussion, with the author of that blog, for a while & it's extremely enlightening.

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