Author Topic: Underground wort piping  (Read 4126 times)

Online morticaixavier

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 10:24:44 AM »
Phil, why not just run a hose flexible food-grade hose above ground to move the wort from the shed to the basement?  It will be easily accessible in case something goes wrong, and doesn't require any digging.  I've seen these kinds of hoses in breweries a lot, with tri-clamps they are easy to move from tank to tank.

... party pooper!

I guess that'll work. I guess standard brewery hose will work. Of course, there's still the issue of running electricity and potable water out there. Elec must be able to handle 60amp +, 18kW. Big gauge stuff, no?

get some solar panels for the brewery. There must be some good incentives there... or maybe not I forgot that France is a big nuclear country isn't it? potable water is harder. Maybe a rain catchment? nah probably not consistant enough quantity.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 10:55:45 AM »
Maybe a water tank that you can fill using that same hose we talked about? ;D

For electric . . .


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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 12:14:28 PM »
Phil, why not just run a hose flexible food-grade hose above ground to move the wort from the shed to the basement?  It will be easily accessible in case something goes wrong, and doesn't require any digging.  I've seen these kinds of hoses in breweries a lot, with tri-clamps they are easy to move from tank to tank.

... party pooper!

I guess that'll work. I guess standard brewery hose will work. Of course, there's still the issue of running electricity and potable water out there. Elec must be able to handle 60amp +, 18kW. Big gauge stuff, no?

get some solar panels for the brewery. There must be some good incentives there... or maybe not I forgot that France is a big nuclear country isn't it? potable water is harder. Maybe a rain catchment? nah probably not consistant enough quantity.

Solar panels that would amount to anything would cost as much as the brewing equipment. Although, I heard that you can get some good deals at Solyndra. :D

Online morticaixavier

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 12:22:45 PM »
Phil, why not just run a hose flexible food-grade hose above ground to move the wort from the shed to the basement?  It will be easily accessible in case something goes wrong, and doesn't require any digging.  I've seen these kinds of hoses in breweries a lot, with tri-clamps they are easy to move from tank to tank.

... party pooper!

I guess that'll work. I guess standard brewery hose will work. Of course, there's still the issue of running electricity and potable water out there. Elec must be able to handle 60amp +, 18kW. Big gauge stuff, no?

get some solar panels for the brewery. There must be some good incentives there... or maybe not I forgot that France is a big nuclear country isn't it? potable water is harder. Maybe a rain catchment? nah probably not consistant enough quantity.

Solar panels that would amount to anything would cost as much as the brewing equipment. Although, I heard that you can get some good deals at Solyndra. :D

as will the power to run the elements, running power lines to the brewery etc. it's an up front vs long term expense.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 12:26:29 PM »
Phil, why not just run a hose flexible food-grade hose above ground to move the wort from the shed to the basement?  It will be easily accessible in case something goes wrong, and doesn't require any digging.  I've seen these kinds of hoses in breweries a lot, with tri-clamps they are easy to move from tank to tank.

... party pooper!

I guess that'll work. I guess standard brewery hose will work. Of course, there's still the issue of running electricity and potable water out there. Elec must be able to handle 60amp +, 18kW. Big gauge stuff, no?

get some solar panels for the brewery. There must be some good incentives there... or maybe not I forgot that France is a big nuclear country isn't it? potable water is harder. Maybe a rain catchment? nah probably not consistant enough quantity.

Solar panels that would amount to anything would cost as much as the brewing equipment. Although, I heard that you can get some good deals at Solyndra. :D

as will the power to run the elements, running power lines to the brewery etc. it's an up front vs long term expense.

Sorry, but electrical work isn't that expensive and if he's knowledgeable and allowed to, he can do a lot of it himself. Taks a look at what it costs to develop 4-6 Kw of solar power.

Online morticaixavier

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 12:33:03 PM »
[Sorry, but electrical work isn't that expensive and if he's knowledgeable and allowed to, he can do a lot of it himself. Taks a look at what it costs to develop 4-6 Kw of solar power.

yeah I guess solar just isn't cost effective. that's probably why walmart is converting all of there stores to solar right? Those notorius big spenders.
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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 01:05:53 PM »
[Sorry, but electrical work isn't that expensive and if he's knowledgeable and allowed to, he can do a lot of it himself. Taks a look at what it costs to develop 4-6 Kw of solar power.

yeah I guess solar just isn't cost effective. that's probably why walmart is converting all of there stores to solar right? Those notorius big spenders.

It may be just for advertising that they're "Green". That seems to mean, so much to some people.

Also, you know that if Wal-Mart is doing it, they're getting great discounts, possibly some for free, just so the manufactures can advertise that fact. If I was starting a new brewery, I'd concentrate on the many  things you have to have to brew beer. Creative power can come later. Also, you still have to run electrical lines to those many panels on the roof. If you plan ahead, a lot of your electrical work can be converted later.

Offline rjharper

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2011, 01:14:39 PM »
Getting back on thread, what kind of distance are we talking about here? Because that's what will determine if 3/4" pipe / tubing and the OP's pump will make it.

As far as water and power, you could look at running an "umbilical" from the basement to the brewery.  You could run permanently fixed power, water (and wort if you want) lines above ground.  This would be closer to the OP's original plan, without digging, and as long as the ultimate outlet of the pipe is lower than the inlet, siphon could still be used.  You could also combine ideas, with a manifold at the brewery, and short length of tubing that lets you select which you;re coming from / going to.  Biggest issue I see is the pain of sanitizing before, and cleaning afterwards.

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 01:18:38 PM »
Walmart may be getting tax credits or other benefits for doing it.  Their stores also have an enormous foot print so they're getting a lot more panels on there than you would on a typical-sized building.

On some of the newer residential "green" buildings, you can get enough power to run an electric hot water heater.  But the payback in savings vs. upfront cost is not really there.  Grants and other "free money" also are out there to help, but they also do not cover the full cost.

Geothermal is a more effective source, but also cost-prohibitive.

As bo says, a lot of times it's done just to be "green" or perhaps to get LEED certification as a marketing tool.  Or because people truly believe that the investment is making a difference.
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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2011, 01:27:32 PM »
Distance = about 15-20 meters, diagonal.

Solar = a great idea but won't provide nearly the amount of power I need with the roof size I'm going to have. 8 m^2 won't do for four 4,5kilowatt heating elements, let alone the pumps. In the new house, whenever that gets built, of course I'll throw some panels on because yes, there are plenty of credits, but the best thing to have is wind turbines.

As far as digging the trench goes, I'll do it by hand, it's not very far, and I've got a post hole digger that'll make it easier than with a shovel alone.

Could you give me more details on what an umbillical would look like? I'm concerned about above-ground because I don't know what gauge I'm going to be needing for that kind of power draw, and I'm nervous about having the water line next to the power line, fraying, etc...
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Offline bo

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2011, 01:34:42 PM »
A 20 meter, flexible cable, capable of supplying the power for 18kw of heating elements is going to be one big mother.

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 01:45:54 PM »
75' x 75A (18000W / 240V) needs minimum #6 gauge wire, or 126/0.4 in Europe

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 02:45:41 PM »
Maybe a water tank that you can fill using that same hose we talked about? ;D

For electric . . .




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Offline bo

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 03:14:04 PM »
75' x 75A (18000W / 240V) needs minimum #6 gauge wire, or 126/0.4 in Europe

Not to be picky, but Europe is mainly 220, so that's a little more than 80A and that's only the heaters. An SO #2, 3 conductor flexible cable has an NEC rating of 95amps and I wouldn't go any less than that for 81 amps.

 Is that all you're needing power for, because even that doesn't leave you with much excess capacity?

Offline Slowbrew

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 04:09:10 PM »
75' x 75A (18000W / 240V) needs minimum #6 gauge wire, or 126/0.4 in Europe

Not to be picky, but Europe is mainly 220, so that's a little more than 80A and that's only the heaters. An SO #2, 3 conductor flexible cable has an NEC rating of 95amps and I wouldn't go any less than that for 81 amps.

 Is that all you're needing power for, because even that doesn't leave you with much excess capacity?

I would think once you add in lighting and possibly heating and cooling of the shed you will be looking at well 100A (Full Disclosure: I did not do any actual math on paper).  I don't think temporary flex cable would be up to the job.  Or I should say, I don't think I would be up to moving that pile of cable too often.  8^)  I'd go with something buried just to avoid anymore items in the PITA category.

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