Author Topic: Underground wort piping  (Read 4128 times)

Offline rjharper

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2011, 04:10:24 PM »
75' x 75A (18000W / 240V) needs minimum #6 gauge wire, or 126/0.4 in Europe

Not to be picky, but Europe is mainly 220, so that's a little more than 80A and that's only the heaters. An SO #2, 3 conductor flexible cable has an NEC rating of 95amps and I wouldn't go any less than that for 81 amps.

 Is that all you're needing power for, because even that doesn't leave you with much excess capacity?

I'll meet you in the middle. EU countries apparently harmonized to 230V in 2008. I was going off the UK at 240 where I grew up.  But yes, I wouldn't want to go any lower than 100A. You'll need lighting, pumps etc...

Offline bo

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2011, 04:45:44 PM »
I didn't know that they went to 230V. Interesting. I agree, 100Amp service minimum. I would NOT do that with a flexible cord, but that's just me. That SO 2/3 is almost 1 1/4" in diameter.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:48:24 PM by bo »

Offline phillamb168

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2011, 02:37:11 AM »
Yup, 230V. Sounds to me like 100Amp is what I'll need. Time to talk to the electrician... This just got much more expensive.
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Offline bo

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2011, 05:54:16 AM »
I'd have him run a 100 amp sub-panel. That way you have a little room for expansion. Of course that assumes that your main panel can handle it. If not, then it gets really expensive and you might be better off to run new service directly to your brewing area. Your electrician will hopefully guide you in the most economical direction.

Offline phillamb168

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2011, 07:49:55 AM »
I'd have him run a 100 amp sub-panel. That way you have a little room for expansion. Of course that assumes that your main panel can handle it. If not, then it gets really expensive and you might be better off to run new service directly to your brewing area. Your electrician will hopefully guide you in the most economical direction.

I -THINK- that I'm on 100amps at the house right now, would that do, or does it need to be higher? Figure I can't run the oven and blender when I'm brewing, which is no biggie. I put in a call to an (ENGLISH SPEAKING HALLELUJAH) electrician so we're gonna see how it goes. I'd like the whole project to cost less than $5k, does this sound reasonable? Note that this includes me pouring a slab and doing the framing/roofing/tiling/etc myself, so cost other than electric is going to be materials. I'm getting pretty excited about this, as it seems that it's entirely doable and is one big step towards a "real" brewery. Might even have to get a TV in there.
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Offline bo

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2011, 07:59:54 AM »
You can't run a 100 amp sub panel off of a 100 amp main panel. There are calculations that determine the normal load based on the appliances, HVAC, etc. you have in your home.

Something to think about is that you're running 2 heaters in your HLT and 2 more to your boil kettle. At least I thought I saw that some place. Do you need to run both of them at the same time? It would certainly be good to have that capability, but you're probably going to need to upgrade your main panel and it starts getting expensive when you do that. It could possibly eat up a lot of your $5k.

Offline phillamb168

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2011, 08:30:53 AM »
You can't run a 100 amp sub panel off of a 100 amp main panel. There are calculations that determine the normal load based on the appliances, HVAC, etc. you have in your home.

Something to think about is that you're running 2 heaters in your HLT and 2 more to your boil kettle. At least I thought I saw that some place. Do you need to run both of them at the same time? It would certainly be good to have that capability, but you're probably going to need to upgrade your main panel and it starts getting expensive when you do that. It could possibly eat up a lot of your $5k.

I don't have to run them both at the same time, no, at least not if running them both at the same time means I'd have to pay an extra $3k. But I see what you mean. Is it technically possible to split off the line from the utility company trunk and have two separate meters? I could see how that would potentially be expensive, but perhaps it'd be less than the first option...
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Offline bo

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2011, 08:47:11 AM »
You can't run a 100 amp sub panel off of a 100 amp main panel. There are calculations that determine the normal load based on the appliances, HVAC, etc. you have in your home.

Something to think about is that you're running 2 heaters in your HLT and 2 more to your boil kettle. At least I thought I saw that some place. Do you need to run both of them at the same time? It would certainly be good to have that capability, but you're probably going to need to upgrade your main panel and it starts getting expensive when you do that. It could possibly eat up a lot of your $5k.

I don't have to run them both at the same time, no, at least not if running them both at the same time means I'd have to pay an extra $3k. But I see what you mean. Is it technically possible to split off the line from the utility company trunk and have two separate meters? I could see how that would potentially be expensive, but perhaps it'd be less than the first option...

They probably sized the feeder lines based on your meter base, so no, they couldn't expect them to carry twice the current. However, unless the transformer that feeds you house, and likely others, is not at it's capacity, then they could run new lines to a new meter base.

Look at you bill and see if they hit you with a customer charge each month. I get popped with $20 so another meter is automatically an additional $20 even if I didn't use even 1 kwhr.  Not a deal breaker, but it all adds up.

Offline denny

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2011, 09:39:43 AM »
Taks a look at what it costs to develop 4-6 Kw of solar power.

You might want to clue Sierra Nevada in....

http://www.sierranevada.com/environment.html
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Online Joe Sr.

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2011, 09:46:28 AM »
Our base electric scope for retail spaces is a 200 amp service.  This covers lighting, hot water heater, HVAC, etc.  Everything is electric.

For a 1000 SF Subway sandwich shop, we upgraded to 400 amp.  Again, everything is electric including their ovens.

I'm not sure how big your brewery is, but you don't want to go and size the electric to the minimum you need.  You ought to plan on excess capacity as adding it later is expensive.

You are correct that this is not the type of power you want to be hooking and un-hooking with temporary cables.  Set aside the risk of electrocution, those would massive cables that require special connections.  I doubt running these as a temporary umbilical above ground would meet any sort of code.

FWIW, adding 400 amps right now, going from a main electric room to switch gear and a meter bank, is going to cost us over $5000 alone.  There's a lot more power and equipment there than you need and it is also requiring ComEd engineers to layout and approve.  If the switch gear is too far from the electric room, the main lines need to be encased in concrete.  My point being, electric can snowball.
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Offline phillamb168

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2011, 09:46:41 AM »
then they could run new lines to a new meter base.

That sounds $$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Offline phillamb168

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2011, 09:50:57 AM »
Our base electric scope for retail spaces is a 200 amp service.  This covers lighting, hot water heater, HVAC, etc.  Everything is electric.

For a 1000 SF Subway sandwich shop, we upgraded to 400 amp.  Again, everything is electric including their ovens.

I'm not sure how big your brewery is, but you don't want to go and size the electric to the minimum you need.  You ought to plan on excess capacity as adding it later is expensive.

You are correct that this is not the type of power you want to be hooking and un-hooking with temporary cables.  Set aside the risk of electrocution, those would massive cables that require special connections.  I doubt running these as a temporary umbilical above ground would meet any sort of code.

FWIW, adding 400 amps right now, going from a main electric room to switch gear and a meter bank, is going to cost us over $5000 alone.  There's a lot more power and equipment there than you need and it is also requiring ComEd engineers to layout and approve.  If the switch gear is too far from the electric room, the main lines need to be encased in concrete.  My point being, electric can snowball.

I will not be doing anything more than 9kW per vessel, that's for sure - I don't have the storage space for the extra volume that more power would be able to generate. Still, it's good to know a ballpark. If I can say 5k, it's pricey, but at least I know it's doable and not in crazyland.

You own a subway? Man I love those things. Wish there was one closer to my house.
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Online Joe Sr.

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2011, 09:54:32 AM »
I don't own anything, I lease space owned by my company to a Subway as well as other retailers.  Subways, by the way, seem like a license to print money.

FWIW, overhead electric service would be significantly cheaper if they do it there.  The could bring a line from the transformer (assuming it has capacity and hopefully it's close by) and set a meter at your brewery building.

Here, I believe the cost of bringing the overhead line to the meter is not something they can charge you for, as they are obligate to provide the service.  If, however, they "need" to upgrade equipment to provide your service they can and do pass that on to you.
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Offline bo

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2011, 10:20:26 AM »
I don't own anything, I lease space owned by my company to a Subway as well as other retailers.  Subways, by the way, seem like a license to print money.

FWIW, overhead electric service would be significantly cheaper if they do it there.  The could bring a line from the transformer (assuming it has capacity and hopefully it's close by) and set a meter at your brewery building.

Here, I believe the cost of bringing the overhead line to the meter is not something they can charge you for, as they are obligate to provide the service.  If, however, they "need" to upgrade equipment to provide your service they can and do pass that on to you.

That's a good point, Joe. In my area they allow you $1000 dollars worth of installation service. This can include transformers, wires, etc. You are responsible for the rest including the cost of the meter base.

Offline phillamb168

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Re: Underground wort piping
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2011, 10:49:17 AM »
Ah, overhead, hadn't thought of that. Everything's buried around here, so I doubt that would work, but it's indeed possible that they'll pay for running some of the line. Sounds like at this point I really can't do anything until I hear from the electrician... I'll be sure to report back with what I find out...
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