Author Topic: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION  (Read 4771 times)

Offline Kaiser

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2010, 06:23:33 PM »
I used to oxygenate throughout my chilling, maybe 5-10 minutes and I got some very oxidized beers. I know everyone will say that the oxygen will dissipate, etc., but I transfer into cornies filled with CO2 (sanitizer filled to the top and then pushed out with CO2). I don't think the oxidation could come from anywhere else.

In the industry there is a concern about cold side aeration as well. The concern is that the time between wort oxygenation and when the yeast finally consumed the oxygen can be long enough to promote shorter beer shelf life. As a result there have been efforts to eliminate that initial oxygenation. New Belgium's olive oil experiment was such an effort. Other efforts include oxygenation of the yeast before it is pitched into the wort.

Kai

Offline mikeypedersen

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2010, 07:04:47 PM »
New Belgium's olive oil experiment was such an effort. Other efforts include oxygenation of the yeast before it is pitched into the wort.

Kai

I don't mean to hijack the thread here, but have any homebrewers experimented with the whole Olive Oil for yeast thing.  I think I remember reading that as a home brewer you would only need as much as to dip a needle in olive oil and touch it to your wort......Just on memory.  Has anyone actually tried it before?

Offline ndcube

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2010, 03:59:15 AM »
I used to oxygenate throughout my chilling, maybe 5-10 minutes and I got some very oxidized beers. I know everyone will say that the oxygen will dissipate, etc., but I transfer into cornies filled with CO2 (sanitizer filled to the top and then pushed out with CO2). I don't think the oxidation could come from anywhere else.

In the industry there is a concern about cold side aeration as well. The concern is that the time between wort oxygenation and when the yeast finally consumed the oxygen can be long enough to promote shorter beer shelf life. As a result there have been efforts to eliminate that initial oxygenation. New Belgium's olive oil experiment was such an effort. Other efforts include oxygenation of the yeast before it is pitched into the wort.

Kai

Also, If Tom is introducing O2 during chilling aren't the effects of oxydation accelerated when the wort is hot?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 04:00:56 AM by ndcube »

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2010, 05:09:49 AM »
And yes, SN does make a lager....Glissade.

Don't forget the Summerfest.  They now make 2 lagers.

Somewhere I recently read that some yeasts are fine with filtered air, while others do better with O2.  It is not known why.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 05:11:40 AM by hopfenundmalz »
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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2010, 06:20:24 AM »
According to Wyeast (sorry for the poor formatting)

Method     DO ppm     Time
Siphon Spray    4 ppm    0 sec.
Splashing & Shaking    8 ppm    40 sec.
Aquarium Pump w/ stone    8 ppm    5 min
Pure Oxygen w/ stone    0-26ppm    60 sec (12ppm)

It was concluded that pumping compressed air through a stone is not an efficient way to provide adequate levels of DO. Traditional splashing and shaking, although laborious, is fairly efficient at dissolving up to 8 ppm oxygen. To increase levels of oxygen, the carboy headspace can be purged with pure oxygen prior to shaking. The easiest and most effective method remains injecting pure oxygen through a scintered stone.

I have seen this before about shaking for only 40 seconds and, frankly, I just never really believed it. I always wondered if the "40 sec" was a typo and should have said "40 minutes."

I aerate with pure o2 and I am pretty sure that I have over aerated in a yeast starter to toxic levels before (I have no proof, but the yeast should have been healthy and had a loooooong lag. Like over 4 days). But, in my carboys I have aerated with pure o2 from 1-3 minutes per 5 gallons and have never had a problem. A DO meter is a handy tool to have in our hobby - and an expensive one. Kai, do you mind if I ask how much you spent?

Does anyone know what ppm level o2 becomes toxic to the yeast? It seems like I read it before but I cannot remember. Also, I thought that wort could hold only a ppm level that was under the toxicity level? I know that colder wort can absorb more o2 than warmer wort, but can the colder wort absorb enough to toxicity levels?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 06:29:26 AM by majorvices »
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Offline bluesman

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2010, 06:54:40 AM »
According to Wyeast (sorry for the poor formatting)

Method     DO ppm     Time
Siphon Spray    4 ppm    0 sec.
Splashing & Shaking    8 ppm    40 sec.
Aquarium Pump w/ stone    8 ppm    5 min
Pure Oxygen w/ stone    0-26ppm    60 sec (12ppm)

It was concluded that pumping compressed air through a stone is not an efficient way to provide adequate levels of DO. Traditional splashing and shaking, although laborious, is fairly efficient at dissolving up to 8 ppm oxygen. To increase levels of oxygen, the carboy headspace can be purged with pure oxygen prior to shaking. The easiest and most effective method remains injecting pure oxygen through a scintered stone.

Does anyone know what ppm level o2 becomes toxic to the yeast? It seems like I read it before but I cannot remember. Also, I thought that wort could hold only a ppm level that was under the toxicity level? I know that colder wort can absorb more o2 than warmer wort, but can the colder wort absorb enough to toxicity levels?

There's a study that I mentioned several posts back, but again you'd have to pay for it. I bet if you called or e-mailed Wyeast or White Labs they would offer that information and advice on this issue.
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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2010, 07:08:41 AM »
Aquarium pump VS splashing and shaking

Yep it's slower, but we won't get the "glass carboy almost killed me" threads.
I usually have the wort freefall about 3ft into a bucket after chilling.
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Offline babalu87

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2010, 07:17:58 AM »
Aquarium pump VS splashing and shaking

Yep it's slower, but we won't get the "glass carboy almost killed me" threads.
I usually have the wort freefall about 3ft into a bucket after chilling.

With the cold here recently I have been chilling to pitching temps with the recirc chiller and using the drilled tube on the end of my hose.
Foam out the top of the fermenters tells me thats enough.

I'd be interested to see what temperature Wyeast used for the table being referenced.

Possibly various aeration techniques work more efficiently depending on the given temperature?
Would pure 02 not work the same regardless of the wort temperature (provided its not boiling or VERY warm)?
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Offline ndcube

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2010, 07:33:48 AM »
Would pure 02 not work the same regardless of the wort temperature (provided its not boiling or VERY warm)?

So the you can get more O2 in cooler wort using "air" is because the air is denser containing more molecules in a given space, correct?

Wouldn't the same hold true for pure O2, except that instead of talking about a difference of 8-12ppm we might be talking about a difference of 30-34 ppm (just made those numbers up) which would make no difference to us because that too much anyway.

Offline Kaiser

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2010, 07:43:23 AM »
Somewhere I recently read that some yeasts are fine with filtered air, while others do better with O2.  It is not known why.

Different yeast strains are known to have different oxygen requirements. But we home brewers don’t worry about that as much as commercial brewers would who use the same yeast and brew the same beer all the time.

A DO meter is a handy tool to have in our hobby - and an expensive one. Kai, do you mind if I ask how much you spent?
 

I spent $150 on this one: http://www.eseasongear.com/milwaukeesm600.html

My main motivation for that purchase was to look into and evaluate different aeration techniques. I don’t think that brewers need to invest in a DO meter just because they think they might have aeration issues. Testing dissolves oxygen also takes almost a minute since the oxygen levels inside the probe have to be matched to the outside via diffusion through a membrane.

But for $150 they are definitely a worthwhile investment for any commercial brewer. Yet I was surprised to read an MBAA paper a while back that reported that many craft brewers underaerate their wort.

Kai

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2010, 08:24:27 AM »
150 bucks? I thought they were much more.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2010, 08:41:02 AM »
150 bucks? I thought they were much more.

that's what I thougt too. The link is for a place that has a big discount on them and I also bought my pH meter there.

Kai

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2010, 09:37:35 AM »

So there can never be too much O2 present that the yeast won't use it all?
People reported solvent like taste with over O2 beers (even when fermenting at proper temp).
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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2010, 10:07:20 AM »
So the you can get more O2 in cooler wort using "air" is because the air is denser containing more molecules in a given space, correct?

No. Well, partly, but it's a very minor effect. The main reason is that a cooler liquid has reduced molecular energy, and so there's simply more "room" for the gas to dissolve, without the liquid molecules knocking it back out.
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Offline prism21

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Re: PURE O2 vs. NATURAL AIR AERATION
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2010, 10:39:13 AM »
Does anyone use the hybrid method of filling the headspace with oxygen and then using a mixstir described here?  http://blog.flaminio.net/blogs/index.php/beer/oxygen/081408-wort-aeration
It seems to have two benefits: efficient use of oxygen (1 to 2 seconds) and consistent levels.  I'm planning to try it on my next batch.