Author Topic: American Farmhouse  (Read 1610 times)

Offline johnnyb

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • Pembroke, NH
    • View Profile
American Farmhouse
« on: January 06, 2012, 12:53:07 PM »
This will be my first saison. I started working on the recipe at NB forums but figured maybe I can get some more advice here too. I'm trying to make this more in the style of the older farmhouse saison's, which is why the OG is so low compared to most modern saison's. Also want this to be an American Farmhouse hence the 2-row pale and other malts from Valley Malt.

According to Br'uin Water, the 4 ounces of acid malt along with a bit of chalk (which I need for the calcium anyway) will put my pH right around 5.3 so I think I'll be ok with it. I could get the calcium by skipping acid malt and chalk and going with gypsum and calcium chloride but I thought it might be ok to try the acid malt.

There used to be a saison brewed by The Alchemist in Waterbury, VT called Farmer's Daughter - which I'm not trying to clone but just be inspired by. It was dry but the mouthfeel was sort of creamy or rounded. I figure maybe they got that from rye or wheat but not not sure which one to try. It also had hints of "breadyness" and honey hence the small amount of Victory and the honey. Overall though it was a fairly clean light malt profile so I don't want to overdue things.

It also had hints of black pepper and citrus but I don't know if it was spiced or it just came from the yeast. It was definetely subtle and not "in your face" so I thought for the first round I would use WY3711 and skip any spice additions.

I'm a bit skeptical of my grain bill after looking at some others out there. It seems kind of busy and I definetely want a fairly clean profile to let the yeast shine. Any comments would be appreciated.



For 6.25 gallons @ 70% EE
OG: 1.041
Estimated IBU: 18 (BU:GU = 0.44)
Estimated SRM: 6
Estimated ABV: 4.7% (could go a little higher as I hear the yeast chews through everything)

Mash for 80 minutes @ 148


Grain Bill:

7 pounds Valley Malt 2-row Pale
1.5 pounds Valley Malt rye (or same amount red wheat)
8 ounces Victory Malt
4 ounces acidulated malt (trying to get a little sour twang)

1 pound local honey (added at flameout)


Hops:

0.25oz Crystal @ FWH
0.25oz Mount Hood @ FWH
0.5oz Mount Hood @ 60
1oz Crystal @ 1

Looking for a bit of citrus flavor and a flowery nose.


Yeast:

French Saison Wyeast 3711 pitched at 62F and slowly bring up to 75F.

(Also considering splitting the batch and pitching half with WLP670 and letting it go for a while for some funk.)

Offline morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5689
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2012, 01:59:08 PM »
Have you contacted the folks at the Alchemist? could also be oats. The honey won't come through much but I think it's a great addition. Valley Malts, is that the place in western MA? I am interested in getting soem malts from them but I am not sure they ship cross country.

The grist doesn't look too complicated though. I say give it a try and adjust after the first try.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller

Offline johnnyb

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • Pembroke, NH
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2012, 02:41:12 PM »
No I haven't contacted them. They closed due to the floods from Hurricane Irene - but he runs a cannery now so I could probably still reach him via email. In the past he did tell me information about some of their other beers, so I'm sure he would be helpful if I contacted him.

Yes Valley Malt is the one in Hadley, MA. I drove down there a few weeks ago and picked up a bunch of malts from them. I've got two beers fermenting right now with that stuff but haven't had my first taste yet. If you're looking to try their stuff before deciding whether to buy sacks of it, I could send you enough 2-row pale for a 5 gallon batch, and maybe some small quantities (1 or 2 pounds) of their red wheat and rye.

Offline morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5689
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2012, 03:35:24 PM »
That would be awesome! I don't have the money in the brewbank now for much more but in a few weeks that will change. I will PM you my address and contact info!
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller

Offline johnnyb

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • Pembroke, NH
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2012, 06:15:52 PM »
Replied to your PM.

BTW I realized on the ride home tonight a better description of the Farmer's Daughter than creamy roundness is a soft roundness. Just something about the mouthfeel gave a sensation of softness, but not sure what. Some of the reviews online mention getting it served from a cask - which might be where that softness came from. If that's where the softness came from I'm not sure I can replicate it, as I want to bottle this in those cool corked bottles with the cages.

Offline snowtiger87

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 02:25:55 PM »
I think the rye would conflict with the acid malt and agree with the suggestion to use flaked oats instead.
Brewing since 1989 - BJCP National Rank

Fermenting: McChouffe clone, Samiclaus clone
Conditioning: Belgian Tripel, Barrel Aged Baltic Porter - in sherry barrel, Belgain Easter Ale
On tap: CAP, Dortmunder Export, IIPA, Dubbel Chocolate Stout, Wee Heavy, Whiskey barrel aged Wee Heavy, Baltic Porter
Newly Bottled:

Offline morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5689
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 03:43:26 PM »
Replied to your PM.

BTW I realized on the ride home tonight a better description of the Farmer's Daughter than creamy roundness is a soft roundness. Just something about the mouthfeel gave a sensation of softness, but not sure what. Some of the reviews online mention getting it served from a cask - which might be where that softness came from. If that's where the softness came from I'm not sure I can replicate it, as I want to bottle this in those cool corked bottles with the cages.

you can also get some interesting mouth feel variations by manipulating the level of carbonation. I also think bottle conditioning, or I should say natural carbonation gives a softer finer bubble but there are many that disagree about that.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller

Offline hokerer

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2634
  • Manassas, VA
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2012, 04:41:19 PM »
BTW I realized on the ride home tonight a better description of the Farmer's Daughter than creamy roundness is a soft roundness.

Hmmm, I think I want to meet this farmer's daughter :)
Joe

Online andyi

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2012, 04:55:55 PM »
 I have brewed four different saisons with the WY3711 and each time i get the characteriitstic creamy mouthfeel (see the WYeast site) .

Going with CaCl or CaSO4 will give you the calcium/pH adjustment you are looking for. In addition to the salts, I use about 3oz of acid to get my pH in the right range for all my pale beers.  I'm not sure If 4oz of acid malt will be noticeable for flavor, others may chime in.

Offline pinnah

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1160
  • Wesloper, CO
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2012, 07:07:29 PM »
I am liking your hop schedule,
but perhaps if you share here what all you have in the freezer
you may get some more opinions.

Cheers. 8)

Offline johnnyb

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • Pembroke, NH
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2012, 07:58:01 PM »
I am liking your hop schedule,
but perhaps if you share here what all you have in the freezer
you may get some more opinions.

Cheers. 8)

I got a lot of advice from NB forum on the hop schedule which is why I focused more on the grainbill here, but I'm open to all suggestions. Here is what I have in the freezer currently, all 2011 except where noted. I don't want a really strong citrus profile and I would like to use hops grown in the US - just to stick with the American farmhouse theme...


Willamette
Northern Brewer (American - 2010)
EKG

Perle (American)
Spalt
Hallertau Select
Mount Hood
Crystal

Cascade
Citra
Amarillo
Zeus
Centennial
Simcoe

Offline cheba420

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
  • Can I get a beer up in here?
    • View Profile
    • The Beer Research Institute
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2012, 08:30:07 PM »
I like this idea of American Farmhouse! I'm about to brew my first saison and I'm really looking forward to experimenting with this style moving forward.
Matt
Mesa, AZ.
#197645

On Tap: Vanilla Porter, Belgian Blonde, Saison, Black IPA, Punkin Porter
Primary: Pale 31 Clone, Raspberry Cider
Secondary: Vanilla Porter
Conditioning: Brett IPA
Bottles:Mosaic Wheat
On Deck: Flanders Red, Berliner weisse, Punkin Saison, Saison Brett

Offline johnnyb

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • Pembroke, NH
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 10:16:57 AM »
I think the rye would conflict with the acid malt and agree with the suggestion to use flaked oats instead.

I've never used flaked oats so I did a little reading about them. It seems people report that oats leave a bit of residual sweetness, which I'm concerned might not work well with a saison.

I think I'll just drop the acidulated malt (I can easily adjust my mash pH with salts instead) and go with either rye or wheat.


Offline johnnyb

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • Pembroke, NH
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 10:31:20 AM »
I have brewed four different saisons with the WY3711 and each time i get the characteriitstic creamy mouthfeel (see the WYeast site)

Oh cool, I didn't consider the creamy mouthfeel could have come from the yeast.
 .
Quote
Going with CaCl or CaSO4 will give you the calcium/pH adjustment you are looking for. In addition to the salts, I use about 3oz of acid to get my pH in the right range for all my pale beers.  I'm not sure If 4oz of acid malt will be noticeable for flavor, others may chime in.

Yes, normally for a beer of this color with my water I would adjust the mash pH and get my calcium from a combination of gypsum and calcium chloride. For this one I considered using acidulated malt to drive the pH down, and chalk to get the calcium and bring the pH back up a little. Br'un water has the mash pH estimated at 5.3 with my planned additions. However, if 4 ounces of acidulated malt won't be enough for a little sour twang in the taste, I will probably just use my normal methods of adjustment.

 

Offline johnnyb

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • Pembroke, NH
    • View Profile
Re: American Farmhouse
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2012, 11:42:53 AM »
So I heard back from the Brewmaster at The Alchemist and here is what he had to say:

Quote
90% Pilsner malt
10% Caramalt
Shoot for a hardness of about 200ppm
You MUST hit the proper pH in your mash, 5.1-5.3
Mash it low around 144'F
Maybe 35-40 ibu's of mostly late addition hops.
Good luck.

Now the Farmer's Daughter is a much bigger beer than what I'm shooting for (8% alcohol vs 4.7% projected for mine) so the IBU's don't surprise me too much, but I'm definitely surprised by the 10% Caramalt in the grain bill.

I don't know anything about Caramalt but some info online seems to suggest it's similar to a crystal 20, and I don't like much more than 5% crystal in any of my beers, never mind something as dry as a saison. I wonder if the saison yeast just chews through some of the stuff that is normally unfermentable by say an American ale yeast?

I might just go ahead with what I've been planning and revisit this with a future saison. I've made a few more tweaks and will post the revised recipe soon.