Author Topic: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing  (Read 10902 times)

Offline dilluh98

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #435 on: Today at 10:49:58 AM »
I'll echo that statement. I was extremely put off by the way things were initially presented (or not) on this forum ~6 months ago. Since then, I've reevaluated my processes, read much of the literature related to oxygen's role in beer, did the mini-mash experiment to convince myself this wasn't just some fad to chase (with DO measurements). After all of that I started to realize that this is an evidence-based and scientifically-sound methodology for a home brewer to limit oxygen uptake.

Bryan has fielded every question under the sun regarding its implementation and has been quite forthcoming with sharing peer-reviewed sources and brewing texts.
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Offline lupulus

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #436 on: Today at 11:40:48 AM »
I think we all agree we need to stick to the science. We have enough scientific questions as it is.
To summarize my understanding of recent topics and my two cents on them:

- Sulfites do have antioxidant effects in beer. There are published papers on the subject (see Guido 2016 review).
- Sulfites are likely to have an antioxidant effect in wort but there is no published evidence to support this. (And yes, many observations from Brian and other brewers).
- Many authors state that dissolved oxygen cannot be measured in the mash (Bamforth, Gresser) and the published data does not report DO. I have seen tannoids and chemoluminiscence to compare mashes. (So, reference to the DO meter as evidence of the antioxidant effect of oxygen in the mash is questionable; but the chemoluminiscence data is solid).  If anyone has documented validation of DO meters under mash conditions, kindly provide....
- Sulfites may not be the solution for ales. My personal observations are that even at 30ppm SMB in the mash, they can be perceived in the final beer as either sulfite or sulfide flavors. More data is need, but I stopped using them for ales (except for weissbier yeast). I think the effect is yeast dependent and not temperature dependent because I did not notice it either a weissbier or a dampfbier, but again more data is needed.
- Let's not forget that, as an example, there is published data indicating that the preference for a fresh vs a stale lager was 50/50 so low oxygen may not make "better" beer for everyone.
Paraphrasing Chesterton...
Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along the Texas roads, and he will soon discover why beer was invented.

Online Phil_M

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #437 on: Today at 11:42:10 AM »
I also was one of the folks arguing against all this back in the day. The recent dialogue on this forum on the matter has been really helpful, and the result from Hoosier and other encouraging.

Though I personally have yet to try these methods myself, I'm close to doing so. I've never been able to rationalize why "doesn't apply on a homebrew scale" exists, it's not like the science is fundamentally different. The low oxygen approach is, so far, the best explanation of why this "scale affect" happens, and how to reduce it. I'm hoping to brew a "lower" oxygen batch sometime soon to test all this out.
I like flat beer...

Offline beersk

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #438 on: Today at 11:55:38 AM »

- Let's not forget that, as an example, there is published data indicating that the preference for a fresh vs a stale lager was 50/50 so low oxygen may not make "better" beer for everyone.

And this certainly is true, sadly. It's a matter of what you come to know as "fresh" beer, thinking it's the best there is, and developing a taste for that flavor quality.
But I suppose the proles only knew low grade chocolate and stale bread. I don't know why one wouldn't jump up and down when something good and fresh was presented to them.
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Offline lupulus

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #439 on: Today at 11:56:35 AM »
have there been an large scale, blind tastings, where the participants don't know the variable or what they should be looking for?

So far, I see a lot of people trying out to LODO method, and then saying they taste a difference. The mind is a funny thing when you are actively looking for a result.

Really, just do the mini-mash experiment. It's quite simple to put together and I tested a group of people on it who don't even drink beer. Wort in red cups so they can't see the color difference, allowing them to smell or not smell before tasting, they all could easily pick out the low-O2 sample and all preferred its flavor as a warm sweet beverage.

Still, good data is needed.
- Even detractors of hot side oxidation recognize the effect in color (see O'Rourke)
- To my knowledge, the DO meter is not validated to measure DO under mash conditions
- The see-for-yourself answer is not a valid scientific answer, so until you have the data, you can only say that your observations seem to suggest that but these observations need to be validated by a blinded test
BTW this is coming from someone that has made the same observations in wort...

And in the end, the effect needs to be proven in the final beer, doing many experiments with many yeasts, ensuring that the control beer is well brewed and tastes as planned, doing the well-known triangle test to tease out the odd beer, and if found, check whether the beer is indeed better.

Paraphrasing Chesterton...
Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along the Texas roads, and he will soon discover why beer was invented.

Online HoosierBrew

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #440 on: Today at 12:01:24 PM »
I also was one of the folks arguing against all this back in the day. The recent dialogue on this forum on the matter has been really helpful, and the result from Hoosier and other encouraging.

Though I personally have yet to try these methods myself, I'm close to doing so. I've never been able to rationalize why "doesn't apply on a homebrew scale" exists, it's not like the science is fundamentally different. The low oxygen approach is, so far, the best explanation of why this "scale affect" happens, and how to reduce it. I'm hoping to brew a "lower" oxygen batch sometime soon to test all this out.



Yeah, I was definitely against the idea and the way things went down before. I also couldn't see the feasibility of pulling it off at home, and maybe was a little 'set in my ways' in terms of brewing process. But having tried it, I realized it's not that tough, it is doable, and that I really like the results I got, alot. And if I keep getting these results, it's a safe bet it'll be my SOP.

Having said that, I want to be clear that I'm not selling any 'only way to brew' outlook. There are lots of ways to brew beer (Lord knows I've tried most) and that's why we're here - to share info and figure out the way we like to brew best.
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Online Phil_M

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #441 on: Today at 12:05:00 PM »
I think it's a tool, just like other brewing techniques. I could see myself doing low oxygen mashes, then following my standard procedure to bottle or cask for an ale. Also, I still plan to decoct some lagers as well, I enjoy the process and it's fun to try and make a historical beer.
I like flat beer...