Author Topic: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes  (Read 7286 times)

Offline jklinck

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • San Diego,CA
    • View Profile
Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« on: February 08, 2012, 03:45:32 AM »
I'm having a debate right now with someone that posted Jamil's recipes from Brewing Classic Styles onto their website. I told the guy that I think he shouldn't post it as Jamil probably wouldn't like it and that people should just buy his book. He says that the recipes are public domain. What does everyone else think?
BJCP National Judge, D0872

No temperature control
No yeast starter
Time for the dump bucket!

Organizer
North San Diego BJCP Cont. Ed. Group

Offline Slowbrew

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1657
  • The Slowly Losing IT Brewery in Urbandale, IA
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 05:01:28 AM »
At a minimum he should ask permission.  If the recipes are from Jamil's books, then they are under copyright and it is illegal to repushlish them without permission.

If he has modified them in any way then they are no longer Jamil's but if he is just doing a cut/paste he is violating the copyright.

IANAL but the current copyright laws have been a pet interest of mine for many years.

Paul
Where the heck are we going?  And what's with this hand basket?

Offline brushvalleybrewer

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • Centre Hall, PA
    • View Profile
    • Brush Valley Brewer
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 05:11:43 AM »
What does everyone else think?

I am just one person but I think several things.

First, your friend's premise is nearly correct, if slightly flawed in its presentation. According to the U.S. Copyright Office:

Quote
Copyright law does not protect recipes that are mere listings of ingredients. Nor does it protect other mere listings of ingredients such as those found in formulas, compounds, or prescriptions. Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook.

Note that Jamil's book and the "substantial literary expression" that accompanies the recipe are protected by copyright, but that the "mere listings of ingredients" is not.

That said, the Brewer's Code says that you shouldn't take food from another brewer's mouth... and here we get into the gray area.

If it were me, I would not claim the recipe as my own — that would be a lie. I might present it in the context of a review of the book and provide links to where the reader could buy the book — that would be fair use. Instead of presenting the recipe myself, I might simply link to Fred Bonjour's site which houses — with permission — many of Jamil's recipes that were available prior to the publishing of Brewing Classic Styles. For those that are not there, or even in addition for those that are, instead of presenting the recipe myself, I might link to the Jamil Show Archives for the episode in question.

All of that said, a recipe is just that barest of starts on a great beer. Equipment, process, technique, and the brewer's skill are what makes a great beer. Jamil can make a better beer with a can of hopped extract than I can make with the best recipe.

(I am not a lawyer.)

[Edited to remove the "presumably" regarding Fred's permission to post the recipes. See his comment.]
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 06:45:26 AM by brushvalleybrewer »
In a humble log cabin off an unregarded back road, somewhere, deep in the heart of Pennsylvania’s hill country, we find our intrepid hero — the Brush Valley Brewer.

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *****
  • Posts: 6308
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 05:35:31 AM »
Wow! Great post BVB!

JZ's recipes have been thrown around for years and years and he has been one of the main contributors of that. As BVB mentioned, you can go to Fred's site and get a copy of many of them. I don't think publishing them keeps people from buying his book. I have seen charlie P recipes all over the internet, as well as Randy Mosher's.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 05:38:40 AM by majorvices »
Keith Y.
Self appointed "All Grain" section pruner

Offline bonjour

  • Administrator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1771
  • Troy, MI, 37mi, 60.9deg AR
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 05:39:44 AM »
, I might simply link to Fred Bonjour's site which houses — presumably with permission — many of Jamil's recipes that were available prior to the publishing of Brewing Classic Styles.
That is with permission.  I told him that if he wanted or needed those recipes to come down I would remove them.  They stopped going up when his publisher asked him to stop publishing.
Fred Bonjour
Co-Chair Mashing in Michigan 2014 AHA Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan
AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline scott

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 06:39:20 AM »
BVB does a good job quoting from the U.S. Copyright Office.

Information by itself is not copyrightable, it is the expression that is.  For example, telephone numbers in a phone book are not copyrightable.  So the information about how to do a partial mash in the appendix of BCS is not copyrightable.  Everyone is free to share how to do a partial mash, but not necessarily free to re-publish the picture of partial mashing in BCS or the words in BCS that express how to partial mash (the expression).

The recipes by themselves are not copyrightable, they are information.  Jamil went thought a lot of effort to create these recipes, but that does not mean each recipe is protected by copyright.  (Patent protection may have been more appropriate).  Exactly what part of the book that is protected by copyright is murky.  Probably the collection of recipes selected and the way the recipes are formatted.  Probably the explanation about how to brew beer in the beginning and appendix.

Even if something is not against the law it is not an evaluation about whether it is the right thing to do.

Scott

I am an attorney.  I am NOT your attorney.  This is NOT legal advice.  I am NOT giving you legal advice.  Do NOT rely upon these statements.  This is just rambling about copyright law.  No attorney-client relationship is being formed by this communication.  This text is copyrighted.  Any violation may be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  But you can copy this text if you send me a homebrew beer.
Scott

Offline jamminbrew

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 800
  • theAntipunk
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 06:58:10 AM »
I could see posting one or two, but all of them? While your friend may be within legal rights to do so, it strikes me as inappropriate to post more than a few without permission.  Does this person's website profit in anyway from posting these recipes?
Member, AHA
Member, Brew Brothers of Pikes Peak
BJCP judge# D1248
In caelo cerivisiae nil, hic igitur bibimus.

Offline scott

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 07:05:48 AM »
I doubt he is able to post all or even most of the recipes from BCS without violating Jamil and John's copyright.  Jamil and John selected which recipes to include in the book.  That is likely a form of expression so it would be protected.

Same legal disclaimer as before.
Scott

Offline Slowbrew

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1657
  • The Slowly Losing IT Brewery in Urbandale, IA
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 07:40:07 AM »
"I am an attorney.  I am NOT your attorney.  This is NOT legal advice.  I am NOT giving you legal advice.  Do NOT rely upon these statements.  This is just rambling about copyright law.  No attorney-client relationship is being formed by this communication.  This text is copyrighted.  Any violation may be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  But you can copy this text if you send me a homebrew beer."

I like this disclaimer. 

And thanks to all for clarifying the issues.  My general beef with current copyright law has nothing to do with this discussion.  I'm going to be quiet now before I accidentally open up a political discussion.

 8)

Paul
Where the heck are we going?  And what's with this hand basket?

Offline bonjour

  • Administrator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1771
  • Troy, MI, 37mi, 60.9deg AR
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 07:42:39 AM »
So did you send him a homebrew beer,

thru the USPS of course ;-)
Fred Bonjour
Co-Chair Mashing in Michigan 2014 AHA Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan
AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *****
  • Posts: 6308
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 08:04:35 AM »
I doubt he is able to post all or even most of the recipes from BCS without violating Jamil and John's copyright.  Jamil and John selected which recipes to include in the book.  That is likely a form of expression so it would be protected.

Same legal disclaimer as before.

Even if he could legally do it it would be really uncool.
Keith Y.
Self appointed "All Grain" section pruner

Offline kswitzer

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 08:09:13 AM »
As JZ's publisher I have an opinion to share.

As there is a collection of recipes from Brewing Classic Styles and also considering that the recipes are the substantial portion of the book, I believe this would be infringing on the copyright.  See below from the copyright office.

"Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a collection of recipes, as in a cookbook. "  Emphasis mine.

That said, as publisher, I have been generous with offering permission to those who have asked to post a recipe or two offering proper attribution.  I prefer to work things out and have a great appreciation and understanding for the passionate sharing of information about brewing.  However, in the end it is my job to protect my authors and their work.  If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.  

As always if you have any ideas for books you'd like to see or an author to suggest, I'm always open to your thoughts.

Cheers~
Kristi Switzer
Publisher, Brewers Publications
kristi@brewersassociation.org
www.BrewersPublications.com


Offline anthony

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
  • Hoppy to help!
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 11:13:31 AM »
As JZ's publisher I have an opinion to share.

As there is a collection of recipes from Brewing Classic Styles and also considering that the recipes are the substantial portion of the book, I believe this would be infringing on the copyright.  See below from the copyright office.

"Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a collection of recipes, as in a cookbook. "  Emphasis mine.

That said, as publisher, I have been generous with offering permission to those who have asked to post a recipe or two offering proper attribution.  I prefer to work things out and have a great appreciation and understanding for the passionate sharing of information about brewing.  However, in the end it is my job to protect my authors and their work.  If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.  

As always if you have any ideas for books you'd like to see or an author to suggest, I'm always open to your thoughts.

Cheers~
Kristi Switzer
Publisher, Brewers Publications
kristi@brewersassociation.org
www.BrewersPublications.com



Well said!

One thing that would be nice is Kindle editions of the Brewers Publications books.

Offline deepsouth

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1008
  • Brew Maison
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 11:43:28 AM »
would love to see some downloadable brewing books. 

Hoppy Homebrewers of South Mississippi (est. 2009)

AHA# 196703

bottled:     white house honey ale

Offline euge

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7223
  • Estilo Casero
    • View Profile
Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 11:56:27 AM »
I would like to see some Kindle versions or brewing e-books... :)

Seriously though, I can see posting a recipe or two with attribution to the author(s) (JZ/JP) as a sign of respect and giving them credit where it is due. Even without permission.

But to post them all on a website would be an act of extreme douchery- regardless if it was legal or not. IMO we owe a lot to JZ and JP especially and all the others who have taken the time and effort to publish their experiences and knowledge.

That being said I'm glad we stopped SOPA dead in it's tracks!
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard P. Feynman