Author Topic: Bru'n Water  (Read 5798 times)

Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012, 07:16:45 AM »
Got a couple weeks of water modification under my belt now. Im starting to feel more comfortable.  One issue I seem to be having is properly acidifying my sparge water.

My new water system gives me a TDS meter reading of 0 and a ph reading of 7.2.  I bought a hannah ph meter and calibrated it properly.  I have lactic acid and phosphoric acid available to acidify my sparge water.

When i added 2 drops of phosphoric acid my ph read 4.6 and had a similar result adding lactic acid.  The sample was read around 80 degrees F.  Whats a typical addition of acid per say 10 gallons of water at my ph? I cant seem to figure out the right dosage.

I do 10 gallons, so I have found that 4 drops of 75% phosphoric in the RO water gets it close.  I measure, and then take it down with more acid, or up with a little (and I mean a little) pickling lime until it is in the mash range.  I am happy with 5.2 to 5.5 for the sparge water, and I fly sparge - most times.

Thanks! I do 10 gallons also, and I have 10% phosphoric acid(the stuff from northernbrewer).  Ill keep playing and hopefully get it right.  Do you ever find you need to adjust ph of your mash?
Jason
-Head Brewer, Brewtus Brewers in the Shenango Valley. Hopefully opening a brewpub/nano brewery in the next couple years.

Offline richardt

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 07:32:09 AM »
I've done about 5 or 6 batches with various bru'nwater profiles (all different styles)--even though most times it calls for 0.5 or less cc's of LA88% in the sparge, I haven't had to use it (pH usually remains 5.4 to 5.5, rarely 5.6) when batch sparging.  YMMV.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 08:16:05 AM »
A pH target for water is not really a good goal.  The goal is always alkalinity, but that is not as easy to measure as pH is.  That is the only reason I've left pH in the Sparge Acidification sheet in Bru'n Water is to give the User something they can easily check.  Alkalinity is a little harder to check than pH.   The goal is low to moderate alkalinity in sparge water. 

When dealing with a low alkalinity water like RO or distilled water, the alkalinity is already low and only teeny amounts of acid are needed to send the water pH plumeting.  In the case of these waters, no acidification is required since the alkalinity is already low.

Thanks for the question.  I've added additional guidance and alerts in the next version of Bru'n Water to help others avoid this problem in the future.  Keep the questions and problems coming!
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2012, 08:22:27 AM »
A pH target for water is not really a good goal.  The goal is always alkalinity, but that is not as easy to measure as pH is.  That is the only reason I've left pH in the Sparge Acidification sheet in Bru'n Water is to give the User something they can easily check.  Alkalinity is a little harder to check than pH.   The goal is low to moderate alkalinity in sparge water. 

When dealing with a low alkalinity water like RO or distilled water, the alkalinity is already low and only teeny amounts of acid are needed to send the water pH plumeting.  In the case of these waters, no acidification is required since the alkalinity is already low.

Thanks for the question.  I've added additional guidance and alerts in the next version of Bru'n Water to help others avoid this problem in the future.  Keep the questions and problems coming!

That makes complete sense!  Next time I wont treat my sparge water with acid at all!

Now with regards to the mash ph.  Do we ever really see an issue with ph using Ro/distilled water in the mash?  How about light versus dark beers? I plan on doing a Bohemian Pils this weekend with 100% weyermann floor malted bohemian pils malt. Do pale beers ever really need ph adjustment with todays modified malts? wheres next weekend I plan on doing an Imperial Stout with 3 lbs of roasted barley, and 2 lbs of black malt and a lb or 2 or crystal.  Ive adjusted my water to achieve that Black Balanced profile in Bru'n Water.  My projected mash ph is 5.1 and no matter what I do I cant get it up, it says more alkalinity needed.  Any recommendations for this, do I need to do anything at all?
Jason
-Head Brewer, Brewtus Brewers in the Shenango Valley. Hopefully opening a brewpub/nano brewery in the next couple years.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2012, 02:35:31 PM »
Now with regards to the mash ph.  Do we ever really see an issue with ph using Ro/distilled water in the mash?  How about light versus dark beers? I plan on doing a Bohemian Pils this weekend with 100% weyermann floor malted bohemian pils malt. Do pale beers ever really need ph adjustment with todays modified malts? wheres next weekend I plan on doing an Imperial Stout with 3 lbs of roasted barley, and 2 lbs of black malt and a lb or 2 or crystal.  Ive adjusted my water to achieve that Black Balanced profile in Bru'n Water.  My projected mash ph is 5.1 and no matter what I do I cant get it up, it says more alkalinity needed.  Any recommendations for this, do I need to do anything at all?

The easiest thing to do when more alkalinity is apparently needed for the mash water and you are including a significant component of roast and/or crystal malts in the grist is to reserve them from the main mash.  That way you keep their acidity out of the mash and that reduces the need for alkalinity in the mash water.  You add those reserved grains at the end of the mash to extract their flavor, color, and sugar contributions. 

The other thing that can be done is to hold off on the addition of any gypsum, epsom, or calcium chloride that is slated for the mash.  That avoids driving the RA down and helps keep the mash pH higher.  You add those mineral additions and add them to the kettle.

By the way, the next version of Bru'n Water already has the features above incorporated and that allows the brewer to quickly assess if either of these techniques will be helpful in achieving their mash pH. 
If the program says the mash pH will be in the 5.1 range, some action on the brewer's part is recommended.  I find that beers mashed in this range lose their body since the enzymes really chew apart the body at that low pH.  Additionally, the beer will typically have a tartness that can be tasted in the end.  I like to aim for 5.4 to 5.5 with a darker beer.  I tend to aim for 5.3 to 5.4 for lighter beers.  If the beer is a tart or sharp flavored style like Witt or Hefe, then aiming another tenth lower helps that perception.

A pale beer with little crystal or colored malts may not fall into a desirable pH range when using RO water without adding acid or acid malt.  I find that with a 10% 40L crystal component and Pale 2 row, my mashes will fall into range when using RO and no acid addition needed.   
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012, 08:09:06 AM »
Awesome thanks again Martin.  I think Im starting to get a grip on this stuff.
Jason
-Head Brewer, Brewtus Brewers in the Shenango Valley. Hopefully opening a brewpub/nano brewery in the next couple years.

Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 10:10:48 AM »
Quick question in regards to mash ph.  I know there is a correction factor for the mash ph between .2 and .3 ph at mash temps compared to room temp.  Which ph is the one that actually want to achieve?

For example I want to achieve a mash ph of 5.3.  Should my ph reading at room temp be at 5.3 or should it be in the 5.5-5.6 area at room temp and apply the correction factor to assume the ph is 5.3 inside the mash?
Jason
-Head Brewer, Brewtus Brewers in the Shenango Valley. Hopefully opening a brewpub/nano brewery in the next couple years.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 12:44:06 PM »
pH should be referenced only to room-temperature.  Don't worry if the pH temperature adjustment factor is 0.2 to 0.35, it doesn't matter if you just measure at room temp and adjust your mash according to that measurement. 

Measuring the mash pH at the mash temperature is really hard on the pH probe, so trying to ascertain the 'true' mash pH is not a good idea.  That is the biggest reason to standardize on using a room-temperature pH measurement.

Always aim for a room temperature pH as your standard!  All the recommendations for pH range in Bru'n Water are based on room temperature measurement.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 03:11:21 PM by mabrungard »
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2012, 01:15:57 PM »
thanks again martin!
Jason
-Head Brewer, Brewtus Brewers in the Shenango Valley. Hopefully opening a brewpub/nano brewery in the next couple years.

Offline dcbc

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2012, 04:36:12 PM »
Got a couple weeks of water modification under my belt now. Im starting to feel more comfortable.  One issue I seem to be having is properly acidifying my sparge water.

My new water system gives me a TDS meter reading of 0 and a ph reading of 7.2.  I bought a hannah ph meter and calibrated it properly.  I have lactic acid and phosphoric acid available to acidify my sparge water.

When i added 2 drops of phosphoric acid my ph read 4.6 and had a similar result adding lactic acid.  The sample was read around 80 degrees F.  Whats a typical addition of acid per say 10 gallons of water at my ph? I cant seem to figure out the right dosage.

I have always measured the pH of the sparge water when determining acid additions as opposed to the mash, which is what I supposed you did.  My water has a pH of about 7.3.  0.8 ml of Lactic (88%) in 9 gallons gets me a pH of 6 in the water.  I batch sparge, so this probably isn't really necessary.  But it hasn't hurt.
I've consumed all of my home brew and still can't relax!  Now what!

Offline bo

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Re: Bru'n Water
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2012, 09:27:14 PM »
pH should be referenced only to room-temperature.  Don't worry if the pH temperature adjustment factor is 0.2 to 0.35, it doesn't matter if you just measure at room temp and adjust your mash according to that measurement. 

Measuring the mash pH at the mash temperature is really hard on the pH probe, so trying to ascertain the 'true' mash pH is not a good idea.  That is the biggest reason to standardize on using a room-temperature pH measurement.

Always aim for a room temperature pH as your standard!  All the recommendations for pH range in Bru'n Water are based on room temperature measurement.

I'm guessing that we should only be concerned with the ph at room temperature. :D