Author Topic: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer  (Read 9153 times)

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« on: January 28, 2010, 01:01:41 PM »
Does anyone have the official instructions/data sheet for that product. I went to their web site but there is very little information. I remember that more of the links on their web-site used to work.


Kai

Online blatz

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2462
  • Paul Blatz - Jupiter, FL
    • View Profile
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281

Offline ndcube

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • View Profile
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 01:31:09 PM »

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 01:38:05 PM »
Thanks.


Offline ndcube

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • View Profile
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 01:38:36 PM »
"52 is a proprietary blend of food-grade phosphate buffers (similar to brewer’s salts) that
will lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your
water."

Maybe they should make one that works "regardless of the starting alkalinity".

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 02:14:10 PM »
I finally got the water analysis from a 300 ppm 5.2  buffer sample. This is a 0.03% w/w solution:



large image

As expected it is a sodium phosphate salt. The phosphate is not showing up since I did went with the standard W-6 test and did not add phosphate. But that part of the buffer was known anyway.

I’m not sure if the 130 ppm total dissolved solids are correct. I added 300 ppm of the buffer but since sodium phosphates are hygroscopic I assume that there is some water bound the “dry” powder.

The suggested use rate is 2 oz (56 g) in 31 gal (117 l). This is ~477 ppm in the final beer and since ~21% of that 477 ppm is sodium your sodium level increases by 100 ppm. If this is a concern or not depends on the sodium level of the water and beer style, I guess. I expected worse.

There is also some bicarbonate in the sample but this is only b/c there was atmospheric CO2 dissolved in the water. Some of that will have to convert to bicarbonate of the pH is higher than 4.

Kai




Offline tom

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1110
  • Denver, CO
    • View Profile
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 02:25:36 PM »
When I moved into Denver I had to deal with soft water with low alkalinity. A friend gave me some pH 5.2 to try.
I mashed in a porter and its mash pH was 4.90 so I added 1 tablespoon of 5.2, stirred it in and gave it 5-10 minutes to do its magic and I rechecked the mash pH, it was 4.90. I added another Tbs, pH 4.90. Added a third Tbs, mash pH 4.94. Woohoo!
So, in my experience, pH5.2 doesn't work to increase the mash pH when brewing dark beers with low alkalinity water. YMMV
Brew on

Online blatz

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2462
  • Paul Blatz - Jupiter, FL
    • View Profile
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2010, 02:26:26 PM »
interesting as Jamilz always commented that the beers he made with it were 'salty'
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2010, 02:34:25 PM »
So, in my experience, pH5.2 doesn't work to increase the mash pH when brewing dark beers with low alkalinity water. YMMV

It has been said by many knowledgeble brewer/chemists: you cannot make a good 5.2 buffer out of phosphate salts.

5.2 does not act as a buffer in the mash. It seems to act as a pH limiter which keeps the pH from rising above 5.8. I also believe that it does that trough a reaction with the water's calcium and not through the workings of a classic buffer. I really have to get going and publish the data I have to show that 5.2 doesn not do what it is expected to do but that it still can show improvements for some brewers.

If you use 5.2 and your mash is at 5.2 you can also leave it out next time. Most likely your mash will still be around 5.2.

Kai

Online beersk

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1888
  • In the night!
    • View Profile
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 02:57:21 PM »
interesting as Jamilz always commented that the beers he made with it were 'salty'

Very interesting that that should come up.  I've had a similar thought before when I've been drinking a beer where I used the 5.2.  It was an amber ale if I recall correctly.
Watch out for those Cross Dressing Amateurs!

Offline ndcube

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • View Profile
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2010, 06:16:31 AM »
When you check the pH after using 5.2 it should read ~5.5 at room temp, correct?

Is it specified what temp it "locks" the pH in at?

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2010, 06:26:56 AM »
Yes, you argue that. But that is not happening either.

Kai

Offline dean

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 922
  • Me and Hayden, my newest grandson.
    • View Profile
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2010, 07:28:07 AM »
So if I read the report right, 5.2 is basically non-iodine table salt? 

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2010, 07:38:15 AM »
Only the sodium part.

Kai

Offline dean

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 922
  • Me and Hayden, my newest grandson.
    • View Profile
Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2010, 07:45:23 AM »
I didn't see anything else notable in the report... a small amount of bicarbonate, is there something not listed?  Or is table salt not the same as sodium phosphate?