Author Topic: NHC Entries closed....  (Read 17069 times)

Offline narvin

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1242
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2012, 09:22:27 AM »
No matter what way you slice it, you're going to need more judges.  Also, organizing these things is a big undertaking.  There were issues with a new judging center last year... I can just imagine the uproar if a bunch of new sites are added and the quality or timeliness of judging isn't up to par.

One thing that has been mentioned before is paying judges for travel.  More money would help get more judges and set up more judging centers, and also raise the price of entry which possibly would limit the number of entries.  At some point you hit an equilibrium.  The only thing you need to realize is the dangers of growing too fast.
Please do not reply if your an evil alien!
Thanks
Chris S.

Offline bo

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1141
    • View Profile
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2012, 09:28:38 AM »
Raise the entry fee substantially and there will be plenty of space and you'll stop a lot of the shotgunning.

Offline markaberrant

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 251
  • Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
    • View Profile
    • ALES Club
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2012, 09:41:38 AM »
Good ideas, Mark.  But I'm not following the math for round two.  Probably a typo.

I think this is certainly worth considering.  I do like how it opens up the number of first round judging centers and involves more local judges closer to their homes.

Yup, typo, original post has been modified.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 09:50:19 AM by markaberrant »

Offline markaberrant

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 251
  • Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
    • View Profile
    • ALES Club
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2012, 09:43:02 AM »
Raise the entry fee substantially and there will be plenty of space and you'll stop a lot of the shotgunning.

Depends on if the long term goals of the AHA are to allow the competition to grow organically in a manageable fashion, or artifically stifle growth.  Kind of a fundamental "values" thing to consider.

Offline markaberrant

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 251
  • Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
    • View Profile
    • ALES Club
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2012, 09:48:15 AM »
One thing that has been mentioned before is paying judges for travel.  More money would help get more judges and set up more judging centers, and also raise the price of entry which possibly would limit the number of entries.  At some point you hit an equilibrium.  The only thing you need to realize is the dangers of growing too fast.

This would raise costs significantly, as well as entry fees.  You'd start getting into territory where you would need to also offer cash prizes, similar to BBQ comps, otherwise no one is going to enter just for the feedback, medals and glory.

Homebrewing has always been a very grassroots sorta thing, friendly competition, people willing to share recipes and ideas, and volunteer their time.  Making it more about money will certainly change this, though it may be where we are headed.  Again, a fundamental values sort of thing to consider.

Online theDarkSide

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2174
  • Derry, NH
    • View Profile
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2012, 09:53:00 AM »
Raise the entry fee substantially and there will be plenty of space and you'll stop a lot of the shotgunning.

Problem is if you raise it too much, you might price out people who have outstanding beer.  I can afford multiple entries, but if it goes up too much, I'll just not bother out of principal, and possibly make me rethink my annual membership with the AHA. 
Sergeant - BNArmy Member
AHA Member
Seacoast Homebrew Club Member
https://www.facebook.com/SeacoastHomebrewClub
Stephen M.
------------------------------------------------

Offline dbeechum

  • Administrator
  • Brewmaster General
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
  • Pasadena, CA
    • View Profile
    • Experimental Brewing
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2012, 09:53:22 AM »
I know there's been talk of running this thing in three tiers before and I believe expense/staff time have been the two biggest killers of it so far.

I can just see poor Janis face if you tell she now has to find at least 10 more sites of reliable judges. :)
Drew Beechum - Maltosefalcons.com
- Vote in the AHA GC Election! - http://bit.ly/1aV9GVd  -
-----
Burbling:
Gnome is in the Details
*Experimental Brewing - The Book*
Tap:
Peanut Butter Jelly Time
Tupelo Mead
Farmhouse Brett Saison

Offline bbkf

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2012, 09:57:37 AM »


I can just see poor Janis face if you tell she now has to find at least 10 more sites of reliable judges. :)

yeah, talk about a thankless job.  Janis works her ass off for this competition and I bet the only thing she ever hears is the people to b****.

Online theDarkSide

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2174
  • Derry, NH
    • View Profile
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2012, 10:05:02 AM »
yeah, talk about a thankless job.  Janis works her ass off for this competition and I bet the only thing she ever hears is the people to b****.

Didn't some guy give her a big hug at a conference a couple years ago?   :o

Probably not the thanks she is looking for.  ( are the databases done yet? ;) )
Sergeant - BNArmy Member
AHA Member
Seacoast Homebrew Club Member
https://www.facebook.com/SeacoastHomebrewClub
Stephen M.
------------------------------------------------

Offline udubdawg

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 628
    • View Profile
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2012, 10:06:20 AM »
I can just see poor Janis face if you tell she now has to find at least 10 more sites of reliable judges. :)

I totally get this!
However, I made the 5-hour drive to Dallas last year.  And as many well-documented problems as that site had, I'd point out that us largely out-of-town judges DID knock out about half the entries that first weekend.  People drove from Houston, Tulsa, Wichita, and beyond, to help out.  750 was just too many for Dallas that close to Bluebonnet.
I would make that drive again this year, but can't make the 8-11 hour drive to Denver/Minneapolis/Chicago/Indy this year.  So no judging for me.  Hopefully Tulsa or KC will get it next year...

cheers--
--Michael

Offline markaberrant

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 251
  • Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
    • View Profile
    • ALES Club
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2012, 10:49:21 AM »
I know there's been talk of running this thing in three tiers before and I believe expense/staff time have been the two biggest killers of it so far.

I can just see poor Janis face if you tell she now has to find at least 10 more sites of reliable judges. :)

Asolutely, it is the biggest "con" to increasing the number of sites/going to a 3 round comp.  Like I say, would need to crunch the numbers, see what the increased admin costs and effort would be, what the increased revenue would be, and see if it makes sense to hire more people.  I personally don't think there is anyway this thing can continue to grow at the rate it has been with just one paid staff person managing the whole thing.  That isn't to say Janis isn't doing an outstanding job, I get to work directly with her and it is fabulous, but one person can only do so much.

Offline richardt

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2012, 10:52:17 AM »
I know there's been talk of running this thing in three tiers before and I believe expense/staff time have been the two biggest killers of it so far.

I can just see poor Janis face if you tell she now has to find at least 10 more sites of reliable judges. :)

I'm not following, so enlighten me--why would Janis (and the AHA staff) bear a larger burden if Mark's ideas were implemented?  Just delegate it to the comp organizer for each first-round site.  Most homebrew clubs have easily managed their annual competitions involving 500 entries (or more).  I know mine has.  I think it really opens up your available pool of judges.

You could even have 26 sites total.
20 first round sites--none of which also serve as 2nd round sites.
5 second round sites--none of which serve as 1st or final round sites.
1 final round site.

No shortage of judges, IMO.  No thorny issues of compensation for judges having to travel long-distances.  Most judges would already live near one of these sites.  Just be sure to reward them fairly (via BJCP judging points) for their efforts.  I dislike judging multiple flights (e.g., 2 or 3 flights of 9-15 beers) and having it only count as one session (0.5 BJCP judging points).  If it stays that way, don't be surprised to see more judges saying "one and done" and going to hang out in the hospitality room.  It makes it harder to get the comp done.

Offline dbeechum

  • Administrator
  • Brewmaster General
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
  • Pasadena, CA
    • View Profile
    • Experimental Brewing
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2012, 11:08:49 AM »
Each of those locations requires coordination on Janis's part, wrangling on her part. Plenty of people say they can handle it, but then they flake or other circumstances arise and now you've got panic. There's now three sets of mailings, another even more expensive round of supplies (to wade through 10k initial front). There's coordination on transitioning beers between rounds.

I'm not trying to stop the idea cold, it has a ton of merit, but I think its being unduly optimistic to think it doesn't increase the burden on Janis and the staff.
Drew Beechum - Maltosefalcons.com
- Vote in the AHA GC Election! - http://bit.ly/1aV9GVd  -
-----
Burbling:
Gnome is in the Details
*Experimental Brewing - The Book*
Tap:
Peanut Butter Jelly Time
Tupelo Mead
Farmhouse Brett Saison

Online denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 12091
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2012, 11:47:26 AM »
Each of those locations requires coordination on Janis's part, wrangling on her part. Plenty of people say they can handle it, but then they flake or other circumstances arise and now you've got panic. There's now three sets of mailings, another even more expensive round of supplies (to wade through 10k initial front). There's coordination on transitioning beers between rounds.

I'm not trying to stop the idea cold, it has a ton of merit, but I think its being unduly optimistic to think it doesn't increase the burden on Janis and the staff.

Exactly right, Drew.  I think it's great that people are trying to think outside the box to help find solutions, but a lot of the things that have been mentioned have already been discussed found to be unworkable.  But please, keep posting ideas!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline Beertracker

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
  • ExperiFermenting since 1994!
    • View Profile
    • Fellowship of Oklahoma Ale Makers (FOAM)
Re: NHC Entries closed....
« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2012, 12:28:34 PM »
... I would make that drive again this year, but can't make the 8-11 hour drive to Denver/Minneapolis/Chicago/Indy this year.  So no judging for me.  Hopefully Tulsa or KC will get it next year... cheers-- --Michael

I think part of the solution is more 1st round sites capped at the current 750 entries, so to that end my homebrew club (FOAM) has volunteered to host the Old West region in Tulsa, OK (previously DFW) next year.  Most of us have been traveling to help out our regional sites anyway, so we'll just save gas money and hold one here next year!  We just came off a successful year as an MCAB Q with our annual FOAM Cup competition in November which saw a 25% increase over the previous year's entry #'s (626), but we required some out-of-state judges (10-15%) such as udubdawg to get the job done. Thanks again!  :)  Now with another round of new judging recruits from our 3rd year-in-a-row BJCP BiCEP/Exam we'll ready for the "big dance" in 2013... even if no "foreigners" show up in the Sooner State to help us out. The real logistical problem will be how to handle 36+ entries/category in the final round as the NHC numbers approach the 10,000 mark!  :o
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 12:34:20 PM by Beertracker »
CHEERS! Jeff
"A homebrewed beer is truly a superior beer." ~ "Buffalo" Bill Owens - American Brewer

Jeffrey Swearengin
Fellowship of Oklahoma Ale Makers (FOAM)
Tulsa, OK USA