Author Topic: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?  (Read 4130 times)

Offline nateo

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2012, 09:06:48 AM »
this is an interesting idea. However you are only looking at 1 nutrient. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to find a yeast nutrient with low or no N but I have noticed (in a very unscientific way) better results when using nutrients then when not, at least with big beers.

Servomyces and GoFerm (I think) have relatively low nitrogen levels, but I think they still have some. I can't find specifically what they contain, but the descriptions of how they're made sound very similar. I'm completely on-board for having proper yeast nutrition, don't get me wrong. My gut is telling me that yeast nutrients that also contain additional nitrogen and ammonium salts like Fermaid-K wouldn't really be appropriate for wort fermentations, and something like Servo or GoFerm would be better.

In the kind of beer fermentation you'd need additional nutrients (big beers), you probably wouldn't be able to detect vitamin/mineral faults anyway, as long as you didn't add way too much. Without a lot of lab testing, you're just guessing if your wort needs extra nutrients or not. I "just guess" on a lot of brewing-related issues, like yeast counts and AA% for my hops, so I don't know why this makes me uneasy.

As an aside, I've read that winemakers that don't like to deal with formol titration to determine nitrogen levels just use their nose, and add nutrients if the yeast starts throwing sulfur. 
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2012, 09:20:03 AM »
Winemakers don't want to wait till they smell sulfur, they add at the onset of fermentation and at 1/3 sugar depletion.  Yeast throw sulfur early in fermentation, and again late.  The amount is dependent on the health of the yeast, so you want to keep them happy to minimize sulfur since its harder to remove than avoid.

As for MO not needing a protein rest, I think several people have been noting problems with haze using MO and this can be a protein problem.

When I do decoction, I get a slight boost in OG and it seems to mostly show up in the FG as well.  If I'm going for the body and residual sweetness, its fine.
Lennie
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Offline thcipriani

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2012, 12:42:37 PM »
I've heard people smarter than me say that there is little to no change in the molecular weight of proteins in the mash. Don't know if I believe it.

Do winemakers use a formol assay or use a spectrophotometer typically?

Another point is that excess FAN can result in the formation of diacytel.

Fermaid K has something like 17ppm YAN as does Wyeast's BCN – not sure about servo.

Pitching rate, to some extent, determine if you have excess of FAN (i.e. if you pitch 15e6/mL you have too much FAN – the yeast won't use it, you'll have a diacytel problem).
Tyler Cipriani
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Offline nateo

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2012, 01:44:21 PM »
Do winemakers use a formol assay or use a spectrophotometer typically?

I believe formol is common in small wineries. I've read spectro is prohibitively expensive on a small scale.

Fermaid K has something like 17ppm YAN as does Wyeast's BCN – not sure about servo.

I know GoFerm doesn't have any inorganic nitrogen, because Lallemand says in the website that no DAP should be used during rehydration. I think Servo is similar to GoFerm because of this, from the White Labs website: "Servo is yeast and is propagated in a micronutrient rich environment then, and is killed off prior to packaging."

Also, this: "Our nutrient (WLN1000) has amino acids, so if your wort is deficient in nitrogen, our nutrient helps a lot. When trying to grow more yeast as done in propagation, our nutrient can really help. But most of our customers use Servo. It has a lot of usable zinc and zinc is a great source of fermentation power. If that doesn't work, it may be a nitrogen problem, and they try our nutrient."
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2012, 07:52:46 PM »
I've heard people smarter than me say that there is little to no change in the molecular weight of proteins in the mash. Don't know if I believe it.

Not sure I understand that, you are aparently changing the protein enough that it no longer functions as a foam-promoting protein.  But I haven't researched this.
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline thcipriani

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2012, 08:52:49 PM »
I've heard people smarter than me say that there is little to no change in the molecular weight of proteins in the mash. Don't know if I believe it.

Not sure I understand that, you are aparently changing the protein enough that it no longer functions as a foam-promoting protein.  But I haven't researched this.

Check out Charlie Bamforth on the BeerSmith podcast: http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/04/20/mashing-with-dr-charlie-bamforth-beersmith-podcast-14/

At ~31:25 Bamforth talks about a study done by Michael Lewis that argues that there is actually no protein breakdown in mashing – only in malting.
Tyler Cipriani
Longmont, CO

Offline phillamb168

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2012, 02:53:09 AM »
Beersmith recently released a podcast on brewing big beers. Learned a lot there, but here were my takeaways that I'll be applying to the brewday sunday:

1. s***tons of yeast (a 5L starter at high krausen should be enough, no?)
2. LOTS of rice hulls (perhaps 1kg for 20 kg of malt?)
3. no-sparge, vorlauf, empty to kettle on a slooooow drain
4. add DME and/or simple sugar to get to preferred OG
5. Add 8 grams wyeast nutrient post-boil post-chill pre-pitch
6. in the case of stuck fermentation, get a 1L starter of yeast to high krausen and pitch

Sound reasonable?
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Offline tygo

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2012, 03:43:49 AM »
1. s***tons of yeast (a 5L starter at high krausen should be enough, no?)

I'd use more yeast for a beer this size.  If you can, consider doing 5 gallons of a low gravity "starter" beer and pitch on the cake like Mort mentioned in an earlier post.  Or do the double starter like you mentioned earlier. 

Clint
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Offline phillamb168

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2012, 04:57:18 AM »
1. s***tons of yeast (a 5L starter at high krausen should be enough, no?)

I'd use more yeast for a beer this size.  If you can, consider doing 5 gallons of a low gravity "starter" beer and pitch on the cake like Mort mentioned in an earlier post.  Or do the double starter like you mentioned earlier.

Brew day is set for Sunday so a starter beer will be hard to do... But I still have time to do another starter.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2012, 07:34:28 AM »
1. s***tons of yeast (a 5L starter at high krausen should be enough, no?)

I'd use more yeast for a beer this size.  If you can, consider doing 5 gallons of a low gravity "starter" beer and pitch on the cake like Mort mentioned in an earlier post.  Or do the double starter like you mentioned earlier.

Brew day is set for Sunday so a starter beer will be hard to do... But I still have time to do another starter.

If you have time and available material and your 5L is really done I might consider decanting and adding new wort today to try to get close to another doubleing by sunday night. but if not it's probably okay. I've done big beers (not quite this big but 1.100+) with a 0.5 gallon starter to good effect.
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Offline tygo

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2012, 08:04:49 AM »
I'm not sure he's going to get another doubling by decanting and adding another 5L.  I think the inoculation rate on the second 5L is going to be pretty high.  But I don't have any of the reference material or calculators in front of me so I'm not sure.
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Offline phillamb168

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2012, 08:32:47 AM »
Well, this is for a 10 gal batch. I should have time to do another 5L, making it 10 L total/ 5L for each 5 gallon. That seems like it would be plenty?
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Offline nateo

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2012, 08:33:27 AM »
I'm not sure he's going to get another doubling by decanting and adding another 5L.  I think the inoculation rate on the second 5L is going to be pretty high.  But I don't have any of the reference material or calculators in front of me so I'm not sure.

IIRC, a 5L starter would make about 300b cells. You'll get the most growth from 25-50m/ml inoculation. I 300b in 5000ml would be 60m/ml. You should still get a decent amount of growth, though not quite as much as a lower inoculation rate would. I don't have a chart in front of me to figure out the growth factor.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2012, 08:37:23 AM »
Well, this is for a 10 gal batch. I should have time to do another 5L, making it 10 L total/ 5L for each 5 gallon. That seems like it would be plenty?

I would think so.
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Offline phillamb168

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Re: Hochkurz double decoction AND a really long boil for an impy stout?
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2012, 04:30:19 AM »
10 Gallons didn't make it - thanks to a 120 minute boil, 20-something kilos of grain and related absorption and nearly a gallon's worth of absorption by the leaf hops, I only got 20 L out of the deal. measured OG was 1.115 - without adding any extract - so I'm pretty happy. Holy cow is this a thick sludge-y wort. It already has legs. We're using the hydrometer's share to make some chocolate cookies.

I am not so sure that I'll ever do a decoction again, at least not until I can get a better system in place for handling it. Or perhaps I will do it, but never again for an imperial stout.

What remains to be seen is if the 1L starter will be OK fermenting this stuff down. I'm going to get another starter going when I get home and pitch it at high krausen just to make sure they can do their job.
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