Author Topic: Beer of the Week  (Read 1001 times)

Offline dirtydingus

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Beer of the Week
« on: March 13, 2012, 09:40:16 AM »
I'm relatively new here. Just saw a recipe I would like to try soon. The bock on the beer of the week. ?'s. I'm assuming that a fermentation at 35* for 3 months means super slow fermentation, and that the yeast would not go dormant at that temp? "Freeze concentrate post fermentation" have not heard that before. Thanks for any help.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 09:46:10 AM »
I'm relatively new here. Just saw a recipe I would like to try soon. The bock on the beer of the week. ?'s. I'm assuming that a fermentation at 35* for 3 months means super slow fermentation, and that the yeast would not go dormant at that temp? "Freeze concentrate post fermentation" have not heard that before. Thanks for any help.

is this from zymurgy? don't remember seeing the recipe. as I understand lager fermentations the primary phase happens in the 40s-50s and then it is conditioned at 35 when finished. but I could be wrong on that.

freeze concentration is a method for increaseing the ABV by removing some of the water. if you freeze a solution of alcohol the water freezes but the ethanol does not so when you remove the ice the total ABV has gone up. Here in the states this is, I beleive, considered distilling and is illegal without proper permits. but as the acronym says I Am No A Lawer. so beware legal advice from the internet
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Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 09:46:47 AM »
Your correct about a very slow fermentation.

From my understanding "Eis" or "icing" a beer means you freeze the keg of beer( i dont think Id freeze a carboy). You freeze to the point where its slushy and begins to separate then you take the top portion(watery portion) off, reseal the keg then carbonate the now concentrated beer. This will obviously result in an increase in gravity since the watery portion rises to the top when frozen and your skimming that off. 
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 09:47:41 AM »
That's how I read the recipe. The recipe is on the home page of the AHA wbsite.

I've never used 833 that low before but I've used other lager yeasts in the upper 30's with good results.

As stated above. Freeze concentrate is freezing small portions of the beer, then removing the ice crystals in an effort to concentrate the alcohol in the beer. That's the typical process of making an Eisbock.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2012, 09:50:37 AM »
Your correct about a very slow fermentation.

From my understanding "Eis" or "icing" a beer means you freeze the keg of beer( i dont think Id freeze a carboy). You freeze to the point where its slushy and begins to separate then you take the top portion(watery portion) off, reseal the keg then carbonate the now concentrated beer. This will obviously result in an increase in gravity since the watery portion rises to the top when frozen and your skimming that off.

got that backwards, the portion that remains liquid is the higher alcohol portion. that is what you save.

when making apple jack you take hard cider (around 6% abv) and drop the temp to -30*f this freezes much of the liquid close to solid, you then extract the remaining liquid portion for a much stronger drink (I think, and this is totally from memory, that at -30*f you get about 10% volume at about 30% abv but there are probably resources on the web to correct that likely completely incorrect calculation)
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Online garc_mall

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 09:53:00 AM »
as far as I know, freezing in glass is ok as long as there is somewhere for the expansion to go. also, don't flame the top when you pour out the liquid. I have done it with a growler, and I had no issues.

AFAIK, Freeze concentration is considered legal, and not considered distillation, because you can't really get much above 20% ABV. However, IANAL.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 10:24:56 AM »
You're right, freeze concentration is not considered distilling.  I don't remember why though.  It's worth checking if you're worried about it, but the AHA is not likely to recommend members do something illegal.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 11:00:10 AM »
You're right, freeze concentration is not considered distilling.  I don't remember why though.  It's worth checking if you're worried about it, but the AHA is not likely to recommend members do something illegal.

toodling around on the internets the best story I have found for why it is NOT illegal is because the statutes state that it is illegal to remove alcohol from water. This had been interpreted to mean that as long as you remove the ice from your container rather than the liquid portion you are removing water from alcohol instead of removing alcohol from water.

all seems pretty silly to me.
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2012, 11:10:01 AM »
Since 35F isn't freezing, are we sure this isn't the lagering period?  With an initial fermentation of 48-50F?  That makes more sense, I don't think 833 would ferment at 35F.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2012, 11:19:36 AM »
You're right, freeze concentration is not considered distilling.  I don't remember why though.  It's worth checking if you're worried about it, but the AHA is not likely to recommend members do something illegal.

toodling around on the internets the best story I have found for why it is NOT illegal is because the statutes state that it is illegal to remove alcohol from water. This had been interpreted to mean that as long as you remove the ice from your container rather than the liquid portion you are removing water from alcohol instead of removing alcohol from water.

all seems pretty silly to me.

This is an ongoing debate. I've heard arguments from both sides and I don't think there is a consensus. There is a process called "fractional freezing" which is sometimes referred to as "freeze distillation"

"Freeze distillation is a term for a process of enriching a solution by partially freezing it and removing frozen material that is poorer in the dissolved material than is the liquid portion left behind. Such enrichment parallels enrichment by true distillation, where the evaporated and recondensed portion is richer than the liquid portion left behind."

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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2012, 11:24:37 AM »
Since 35F isn't freezing, are we sure this isn't the lagering period?  With an initial fermentation of 48-50F?  That makes more sense, I don't think 833 would ferment at 35F.

The recipe does indeed say to ferment for 3 months at 35 and mentions freeze concentration post ferment. I think these are two separate steps looking at the recipe.
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Offline gymrat

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2012, 07:41:08 AM »
I have a question. Why not just boil longer to get more of the water out instead of freezing and skimming?
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2012, 07:45:13 AM »
I have a question. Why not just boil longer to get more of the water out instead of freezing and skimming?

can't say for sure, but I would guess it has to do with differences in flavour. A beer with a 1.100 OG fermeted out to 1.020 is going to taste different than a beer with a 1.070 OG fermented out to 10.14 and then freeze concentrated.

I would think that the freeze concentrated one would have a cleaner profile as the yeast would have been healthier during the lower stress fermentation.

the other reason would be to make a beer that would be more or less impossible by simply making the OG higher. you'de be hard pressed to get a 1.200 beer to ferment for instance but if you made a 1.100 beer, fermented it out and removed half the remaining water...
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Offline brewmanator

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Re: Beer of the Week
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2012, 07:57:21 AM »
I've seen this recipe or something very similar in BYO, and the ferment temp was 50 oF with a DA rest at 55 oF.  I'd be really sruprised if he fermented such a big beer like an Eisbock at 35 oF.

http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/41-lagering/2503-the-big-chill

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