Author Topic: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?  (Read 2653 times)

Offline spangltk

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Using a recipe that's 4 # of LME, .5 # of flaked oats and .5 # of carapils. Expected O.G. was 1.045 and I had 1.030. I plugged it into hopville and confirmed 1.045 was correct.

Since these are specialty grains with no fermentation, could I potentially re-steep and boil these in a 1 gallon batch and pitch to secondary? Or if I can get it in soon enough, primary. Right now it's only 4 gallons so I have room for that.

I think my oats clumped together and I hadn't noticed until I threw them in the trash.

Offline udubdawg

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2012, 08:36:25 PM »
not really understanding what you mean with your "specialty grains with no fermentation" statement.  maybe I'm just slow?

on a side note, I think with a 4g batch you'd need about 100% efficiency to get 1.045 out of 4#LME and .5 each of carapils/flaked oats.  And if you got 0% you'd get more than 1.030 with just the LME.  Looks like you need almost a 5 gallon batch to get 1.030 with just the LME.
Neither of the specialty grains you used has any diastatic power.  They cannot convert themselves and you need some base malt here.  I would ignore the "cara" in carapils and not think of it like the other malts with this in the name (in other words don't steep it).

anyway, let's get to the bottom of your recipe size/gravity/measurements first.

cheers--
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2012, 08:37:01 PM »
Sounds like starch city.  Oats need to be mashed.  I honestly can't say how this batch is going to turn out for you, or whether it can be fixed.
Dave

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Offline spangltk

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2012, 09:02:23 PM »
This is the white lighting recipe from this months issue of Zymurgy. @dmtaylor - really disappointed if I needed to mash flaked oats when Zymurgy told me that wasn't necessary. 

2#LME Pilsner
2#LME Wheat
8 oz Carapils
0.5 # Flaked oats

Seep Carapils and Flaked Oats for 30 minutes at 154F. Strain add extracts top off with water and proceed with boil. 

I did the above, keeping 3# of the extract for 0 minutes.  I was down to 2.5 gallons at the end of the boil and dumped in 1.5 bags of ice to bring it down to 68F. Added water to 4.5 gallons and took my gravity reading.

Kept it below 5 gallons because I'm adding 4# of Muscat Grape Juice during primary fermentation.

Online morticaixavier

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2012, 11:10:03 PM »
see my reply on your other thread about this. If you were .015 points low then you are for sure getting a bad read. test your hydro with distilled water. or stir the wort better and take another reading. if it's still off then test your hydro with distilled water.
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Offline malzig

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2012, 03:35:47 AM »
see my reply on your other thread about this. If you were .015 points low then you are for sure getting a bad read. test your hydro with distilled water. or stir the wort better and take another reading. if it's still off then test your hydro with distilled water.
I don't think so.  4# of LME in 4.5 gallons of water is going to make a beer that's pretty close to 1.030.  I don't think this is a bad reading, just a bad recipe.
Sounds like starch city.  Oats need to be mashed.  I honestly can't say how this batch is going to turn out for you, or whether it can be fixed.
I haven't seen the article, so excuse me if the recipe was misinterpreted, but I don't know how recipes like this get past the editors.  This is the kind of recipe I would have expected to see 20 years ago, when most of us didn't know much better.  We can argue about steeping Carapils, but those grains really need to be mashed or you won't add much more than starch to your beer.  If the intent of the recipe was to add starch, then fine...

Offline brushvalleybrewer

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2012, 06:10:46 AM »
This is the white lighting recipe from this months issue of Zymurgy.

I don't think this is a bad reading, just a bad recipe.

I'm looking at the recipe (Zymurgy vol. 35, no. 2, p. 20). It's an all-grain recipe with an "Extract plus steeped grain" version, but the instructions say to "Conduct mini mash with 8 oz (227 g) Carapils and flaked oats, steeping for 30 minutes at 154 °F (68 °C)."

That is slightly confusing editing, as steeping and a mini mash are two different things. A mini mash would be appropriate for the oats, but would require some base malt to provide some diastatic power.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2012, 06:16:26 AM »
As far as I know, Carapils has little if any enzymes to be able to convert the starches to sugars.  I suppose I could be wrong -- wouldn't be the first time.  But it's worth looking into.  Sounds like a bum recipe that should indeed have been edited out.  You'll get beer out of it, but a cloudy oddball one that might experience contamination.
Dave

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Offline majorvices

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2012, 06:51:47 AM »
Starches aside, the real point of the mater is that 1 lb total of steeping grains is not going to give you 15 more points brix in an extract beer. Your reading is off. Possibly due to stratification or, as was mentioned, your hydrometer is off. Or you didn't add enough malt extract. But it has nothing to do with the steeping grains.
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Offline udubdawg

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2012, 07:25:57 AM »
Starches aside, the real point of the mater is that 1 lb total of steeping grains is not going to give you 15 more points brix in an extract beer. Your reading is off. Possibly due to stratification or, as was mentioned, your hydrometer is off. Or you didn't add enough malt extract. But it has nothing to do with the steeping grains.

how is his reading off?  It was 1.030.  I would say his expectation of 1.045 is off, not his reading...

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2012, 07:29:50 AM »
Starches aside, the real point of the mater is that 1 lb total of steeping grains is not going to give you 15 more points brix in an extract beer. Your reading is off. Possibly due to stratification or, as was mentioned, your hydrometer is off. Or you didn't add enough malt extract. But it has nothing to do with the steeping grains.

how is his reading off?  It was 1.030.  I would say his expectation of 1.045 is off, not his reading...

without the oats and dextrine it should have been around 1.036-1.040. so the reading is off, regardless of the confusion in the recipe. and the dextrine should have given up it's sugars at any rate. so really we would be talking about taking out the oats which should only lower the og by ~.004.
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Offline repo

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2012, 07:41:15 AM »
I think you get about 35 points per pound LME expectation, right? It's been too long. If so then 4 pounds into 4 1/2 gallons is around 1.031-.032 . So 1.030 would be around normal. Expectation too high gets my vote.

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 07:43:06 AM »
I think you get about 35 points per pound LME expectation, right? It's been too long. If so then 4 pounds into 4 1/2 gallons is around 1.031-.032 . So 1.030 would be around normal. Expectation too high gets my vote.

I don't know, when I plugged the recipe into beer smith it gave me 1.045 for the whole recipe and 1.030 without the oats.
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Offline udubdawg

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 07:46:24 AM »
I think you get about 35 points per pound LME expectation, right? It's been too long. If so then 4 pounds into 4 1/2 gallons is around 1.031-.032 . So 1.030 would be around normal. Expectation too high gets my vote.

I don't know, when I plugged the recipe into beer smith it gave me 1.045 for the whole recipe and 1.030 without the oats.

interesting.  I did that last night as shown in my first post.  what batch size and efficiency did you use to get an extra 15 points out of only 1 additional pound of fermentables?  I figured mid 30's for the oats and low 30's for the carapils, maybe an average of 35ppg for 1 total pound, in 4 gallons. 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 07:54:14 AM by udubdawg »

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Re: Really bad O.G. from specialty grains - any chance of a redo?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2012, 07:58:46 AM »
Okay if I remember correctly I was using my 'starter' recipe which may actually be set to 100% efficiency. so that may not be realistic. however even just the LME is 1.032 and he should have hit that dead on. There isn't really any room for difference with extract. so there is some measurment discrepency. And the carapils should have given him something, even if only a couple points. If he got nothing from the oats I would have expected to see 1.034-1.036 and the oats would have upped the og even if only with unfermentable starches. I still say there is either an instrument failure, a volume measurment failure or...

I just thought of this, spangltk is your hydro calibrated at 68* or 60*? that would account for a point or two. I don't have an adjustment calculator in front of me but would an 8 degree adjustment account for .002 difference in reading?
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