Author Topic: BJCP and carbonation volumes  (Read 4319 times)

Offline tomsawyer

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2012, 05:23:38 AM »
Why would they, you can't measure it or taste it at a homebrew contest.

Tastybrew has a nice bottle priming calculator that shows you the range for the various styles.  I suppose you could correlate CO2vol against the corresponding BJCP descriptions.

Oh really?  I lost out on a BOS due to my brew being "slightly under carbonated".  It was the only "ding" against it.

Yeah, but it was a subjective judgement.  They didn't measure your carb level.

No kidding.  I was responding to "Why would they, you can't measure it or taste it at a homebrew contest."  There is no taste/flavor to carbonation per se, but simply saying that you can't taste it at a homebrew contest, is a bit confused.
I never said you can't taste a carbonation problem, I said you can't taste 2.2vol CO2 vs 2.0.  So the general description in BJCP is more appropriate in my opinion.  Sorry if you were confused about my response, and thanks to Denny for responding in my absence.
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Offline a10t2

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2012, 07:29:42 AM »
But my point is that we shouldn't have to guess. They give specifics like starting gravity range but then are vague about carbonation. Some consistency there would be nice.

Remember, the guidelines are there to assist in *judging* a beer. Helping brewers formulate recipes isn't the BJCP's job.
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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2012, 07:39:00 AM »
But my point is that we shouldn't have to guess. They give specifics like starting gravity range but then are vague about carbonation. Some consistency there would be nice.

Remember, the guidelines are there to assist in *judging* a beer. Helping brewers formulate recipes isn't the BJCP's job.

Then why list starting/ending gravities, ABV range, or IBU range when none of that can be measured by the judge other than subjectively?  If they were consistent then alcohol and IBU's would be listed as low/medium/high...or carbonation would be listed as a range of volumes.

I will email Brad Smith and ask where he got his list. I didn't mean to start a debate about this, I was just looking for a simple set of numbers to guide me when reading the BJCP styles.

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Offline jeffy

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2012, 08:01:40 AM »
I just googled "beer carbonation chart by style" and found several charts that list CO2 volumes by broad style ranges.
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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 08:13:13 AM »
Yeah, so did I but none of that information actually comes from BJCP and some of it is very broad. One of them lists belgian ales as 1.9 to 2.4 which is way lower than what Beersmith has, and Brewing Classic Styles lists many of them in the 3-4 range.

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Offline a10t2

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2012, 08:13:48 AM »
Then why list starting/ending gravities, ABV range, or IBU range when none of that can be measured by the judge other than subjectively?

I never said that they don't *try* to help brewers enter the right category. ;)
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Online ccfoo242

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 10:16:03 AM »
OK, the official unofficial word from the BJCP is:
Quote
There are no measured values which would correspond to a carbonation chart which seems to be what you are asking. The carbonation level affects all attributes of a beer, but the descriptors 'medium" and 'high' are based upon what is sensed in the mouthfeel. The appearance can provide clues as to the carbonation level in some instances.

There is no absolute chart for cabonation volumes for each style. In reality the carbonation level in volumes varies by temperature and the warmer a beer becomes the less soluble the carbon dioxide. There are some listings and programs which provide acceptable carbonation levels based upon style, you may find those useful.

As far as the programs that give estimated ranges, they are best guesses by the authors, at least that is the case with Beersmith.

I find the suggested ranges varies enough to be quite varied. 

For example look at the suggestions for a Belgian dubbel:
Tastybrew: 1.9 - 2.4
Beersmith: 2.3 - 2.9
Brewing Classic Styles: 3 - 4

So does a Belgian dubbel really have carbonation from 1.9 - 4? I find that hard to believe...but then I'm a noob at this.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 03:27:33 PM by ccfoo242 »

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Offline denny

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 10:20:01 AM »
Tastybrew is always on the low side.  I recommend not using that site for carbonation values.
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Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2012, 10:30:28 AM »
I always round the recipator to be pretty much on target. Looks like it is still up
http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator/carbonation.html
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 10:50:35 AM »
I haven't had bad luck with tastybrew but the part about beer temp is the most nebulous part of the calculation.  You use the temp during the fermentation, but I think if you let a beer sit for quite awhile afterwards then it probably gases out to whatever the ambient temp allows.

I wouldn't think a dubbel would have 4vol CO2, but I certainly wouldn't carb it to 2vol either.
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Online morticaixavier

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 11:07:27 AM »
I haven't had bad luck with tastybrew but the part about beer temp is the most nebulous part of the calculation.  You use the temp during the fermentation, but I think if you let a beer sit for quite awhile afterwards then it probably gases out to whatever the ambient temp allows.

I wouldn't think a dubbel would have 4vol CO2, but I certainly wouldn't carb it to 2vol either.

I have always used the highest temp the beer has experience post active fermentation.
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Offline thomasbarnes

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2012, 11:09:24 PM »
Remember, the guidelines are there to assist in *judging* a beer. Helping brewers formulate recipes isn't the BJCP's job.

Listing typical ingredients and techniques can help judges give feedback, which is an important part of judging. Generally, though, you're right. The BJCP guidelines are competition rules, not a recipe book.

Offline thomasbarnes

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2012, 11:14:37 PM »
Then why list starting/ending gravities, ABV range, or IBU range when none of that can be measured by the judge other than subjectively?  If they were consistent then alcohol and IBU's would be listed as low/medium/high...or carbonation would be listed as a range of volumes.

Actually, you can sort of suss out these stats at the table. IBU ranges are detectable to about +/-5 IBU, ABV of 6+% is detectable as alcohol aroma, flavor, warmth and "legs" on the side of the glass. FG >1.015 manifests as fuller body or underattenuation, FG <1.005 manifests as watery or thin body. OG can be inferred by alcohol presence and/or body.

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2012, 11:48:22 AM »
Well, I see that I was looking at the style guidelines backwards, but its hard not to when you want to "brew to style." Just about every parameter is listed for us so without thinking that the guideline wasn't supposed to be used the way I was that's why I was confused about not seeing actual volume numbers for carbonation. Live and learn!  ;)

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Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP and carbonation volumes
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2012, 01:10:40 PM »
I wouldn't really call what I responded to you via email as the "official word". 8)
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