Author Topic: Running - What have I gotten myself into?  (Read 13612 times)

Offline weithman5

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2012, 12:42:46 PM »
as long as i can keep people losing not much more than about 1 lb per week, i don't worry.  data suggests up to 2 lb per week is okay.  but even at a pound a week that is 500cal short fall daily to do this.  i think faster than this and people feel too hungry. 
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2012, 12:49:54 PM »
as long as i can keep people losing not much more than about 1 lb per week, i don't worry.  data suggests up to 2 lb per week is okay.  but even at a pound a week that is 500cal short fall daily to do this.  i think faster than this and people feel too hungry.

I remember one of the guys in that biosphere project, the one where they 'locked' themselves into a big dome for however long, believed that by eating only 900 kCal a day he could live an extra 10 or 20 years. I feel like I would be hungry always at that rate.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2012, 01:02:36 PM »
I remember one of the guys in that biosphere project, the one where they 'locked' themselves into a big dome for however long, believed that by eating only 900 kCal a day he could live an extra 10 or 20 years. I feel like I would be hungry always at that rate.
Caloric restriction works in a lot of different organisms and probably works in humans too.  I worked in a lab that did a lot of research on the subject, it is interesting.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2012, 01:16:15 PM »
Yes, it is one of those weird things.  WHY does it work?!  I have so much trouble with caloric restriction.  I'm at a good weight and physique, even though BMI won't tell me that (it's full of sh*t anyway).  I'm not thin by any means, but I'm not fat either.  Athletic/muscular build is how I'd describe myself, I guess.  But anyway, I eat about twice as much as I probably should be eating.  I love eating so much!  But one of these days, bike commuting 10 miles a day isn't going to be a enough to keep it all off.  I do joy rides too other than commuting, but not as much as I should be. 
I just hate feeling hungry... So basically I eat until I'm full most of the time.  But I'd like to try eating a lot of small meals like Mort was describing.
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Offline weithman5

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2012, 01:28:21 PM »
fundamentally weight is an issue of mass balance. simple physics. however, mass balance is somewhat hard to manage.  you drink a 16 ounce glass of water, zero calories. you will weigh one more pound until you urinate it out.  similar with food but even harder.  you eat a pound of twinkies or a pound of roast beef you weigh a pound more. however, some of this is undigestable and you crap it out.  some of the oxygen that we breath in is exhaled as an extra carbon.  some nitrogen etc, goes out in urine.  so what does the body usually retain out of all of this once water equilibrium and bowel movements normalized - energy that which is not consumed is stored.   if you restrict the caloric intake enough, weight will fall, but as Beersk says, food is good.  (and so is beer)  i am not a weight nazi by any means, and i don't even push one food type over another.  i tell most of my patients that i don't care what they eat, just eat less.  better to enjoy less than be miserable with nothing.
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Offline repo

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2012, 01:35:17 PM »

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2012, 02:12:52 PM »
Yes, it is one of those weird things.  WHY does it work?!  I have so much trouble with caloric restriction.  I'm at a good weight and physique, even though BMI won't tell me that (it's full of sh*t anyway).  I'm not thin by any means, but I'm not fat either.  Athletic/muscular build is how I'd describe myself, I guess.  But anyway, I eat about twice as much as I probably should be eating.  I love eating so much!  But one of these days, bike commuting 10 miles a day isn't going to be a enough to keep it all off.  I do joy rides too other than commuting, but not as much as I should be. 
I just hate feeling hungry... So basically I eat until I'm full most of the time.  But I'd like to try eating a lot of small meals like Mort was describing.
Why?  They're spending a lot of money and time trying to figure it out, but it seems that when you are calorically restricted it activates a variety of preservation pathways on the molecular and cellular level.  The effect is it preserves the organism.
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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2012, 02:32:50 PM »
I was more trying to point out that simply kCal_in - kCal_out makes it seem less complicated than it is.

Well, if you were somehow able to *measure* kCal_in and kCal_out it would work perfectly. But an approximation works out well enough to give repeatable results over time. It's like estimating ABV using OG and FG measurements. There are always going to be limitations. If I used a standard calorie chart to estimate my expenditures I'd assume that I was running a 500 kcal/day surplus, and gaining weight like crazy.

The biggest benefit of calorie counting is that even most people who try to eat a healthy diet are taking in *far* more calories than they believe. Accurately tracking their intake, even if it's only for a few weeks, leaves them much better able to balance their diet in the future.

What I am actually a proponent of is occasional (i.e. monthly) fasting days, but that's probably another thread. (Not that this one stayed on topic.  ::))
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 02:34:47 PM by a10t2 »
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Offline weithman5

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2012, 02:44:22 PM »
I was more trying to point out that simply kCal_in - kCal_out makes it seem less complicated than it is.

Well, if you were somehow able to *measure* kCal_in and kCal_out it would work perfectly. But an approximation works out well enough to give repeatable results over time. It's like estimating ABV using OG and FG measurements. There are always going to be limitations. If I used a standard calorie chart to estimate my expenditures I'd assume that I was running a 500 kcal/day surplus, and gaining weight like crazy.

The biggest benefit of calorie counting is that even most people who try to eat a healthy diet are taking in *far* more calories than they believe. Accurately tracking their intake, even if it's only for a few weeks, leaves them much better able to balance their diet in the future.

What I am actually a proponent of is occasional (i.e. monthly) fasting days, but that's probably another thread. (Not that this one stayed on topic.  ::))

i had a lady come in a few weeks ago and told me she can't lose weight and she is following a 2000 calorie a day diet.  actually she was gaining weight.  your estimate above of running a 500 calorie surplus a day will gain you about a pound a week. similarly if you cut out 500 calories a day, (this puts most of us at about 1100-1400 calories a day, you will lose a pound a week.

 the self preservation does seem to limit the effects of severe caloric restriction, reducing metabolism etc, but won't stop it (otherwise we solved world hunger). this is one reason i like to keep the weight loss slow.  in addition rapid weight loss is fraught with problems.  i have seen two patients die as a result of cirrhosis brought on by the rapid weight loss after having gastric bypass.  (i did not recommend this by the by)
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2012, 02:55:37 PM »
What I am actually a proponent of is occasional (i.e. monthly) fasting days, but that's probably another thread. (Not that this one stayed on topic.  ::))
Two of the researchers I know calorically restrict themselves this way.  One does it once a week, the other twice a week.  They fast for 24 hours, which I have tried and it is not as hard as it sounds.  They eat their dinner before 6 one day, and then nothing except water until they have dinner after 6 the next day so really they are just missing breakfast and lunch.  One guy (once a week) dropped noticeable weight doing this, the other was doing it before I met him but he seems fit and not too skinny.  I think it might help with appetite suppression on non-fasting days, but that is anecdotal.
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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2012, 03:14:35 PM »
your estimate above of running a 500 calorie surplus a day will gain you about a pound a week.

I guess I didn't really present the other half of my argument, which is that I'm maintaining weight despite what the math would predict. AFAIK no one has worked up a calorie chart for activities at 0.7 atm. Maybe I should email NASA...

I think it might help with appetite suppression on non-fasting days, but that is anecdotal.

That's been my experience, and the plural of anecdote is data, so...

I've also found that I have more energy for the week or so after fasting than I do the rest of the month. Doing it weekly would probably be a good thing. I haven't gotten there simply because if I tried to work a normal day in a brewery on an empty stomach I'd pass out. ;)
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2012, 03:21:28 PM »
your estimate above of running a 500 calorie surplus a day will gain you about a pound a week.

I guess I didn't really present the other half of my argument, which is that I'm maintaining weight despite what the math would predict. AFAIK no one has worked up a calorie chart for activities at 0.7 atm. Maybe I should email NASA...
Apply for a grant! :)


I think it might help with appetite suppression on non-fasting days, but that is anecdotal.

That's been my experience, and the plural of anecdote is data, so...

I've also found that I have more energy for the week or so after fasting than I do the rest of the month. Doing it weekly would probably be a good thing. I haven't gotten there simply because if I tried to work a normal day in a brewery on an empty stomach I'd pass out. ;)
Yeah, that is a problem.  I also found I was a bit light headed on the fasting days, which is not helpful no matter what you're trying to do.  You might get used to it though, and not be light headed.
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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2012, 03:23:56 PM »
Yeah, that is a problem.  I also found I was a bit light headed on the fasting days, which is not helpful no matter what you're trying to do.  You might get used to it though, and not be light headed.

Well... ;)

I brewed at home yesterday, a fasting day, and while blowing through some tubing to clear it out I experienced a substantial need to sit down. Quickly.
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Offline gmac

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2012, 03:30:11 PM »
So, I shouldn't run? 

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Running - What have I gotten myself into?
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2012, 03:31:36 PM »
I would ask your doctor before I asked a bunch of random dudes on the internet.  Or semi-random at least ;D
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