Author Topic: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs  (Read 1503 times)

Offline majorvices

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2012, 11:40:10 AM »
I doubt they take any hardness out. My water is not super hard anyway. I change them every 3 months or so.
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Offline FirstStateBrewer

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2012, 11:56:22 AM »
Quote
Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
I went on a trip to Germany with a group of homebrewers in 2002 and took a tour of a medium-sized brewery.  We were shocked when the tour guide told us the wort in the brew kettle was heated to 90c.  The tour guide swore that was correct.

Anyone heard of that, before?
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Offline richardt

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2012, 07:24:55 PM »
Throwing the idea of solar H2O distillation out there.  Not that hard to build some of the DIY versions.  Certainly not as wasteful as RO.  Might be useful on a commercial scale although unnecessary for homebrewing unless you're really into being green or being a prepper.

Offline a10t2

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2012, 08:07:44 PM »
We were shocked when the tour guide told us the wort in the brew kettle was heated to 90c.  The tour guide swore that was correct.

What was the elevation? I boil at 90°C.
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Offline FirstStateBrewer

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2012, 02:01:58 AM »
We were shocked when the tour guide told us the wort in the brew kettle was heated to 90c.  The tour guide swore that was correct.

What was the elevation? I boil at 90°C.
Not high enough to boil, I don't think.  So, we assumed they were not boiling their wort.  My only thought is they might not be heating to a boil in order to conserve fuel costs.  They made a good Pilsener, though, so it was not affecting the quality of the brew. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 02:09:40 AM by FirstStateBrewer »
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2012, 05:16:35 AM »
The highest point in Germany, the Zugspitze peak in the Bavarian Alps, is only a little higher than where Sean lives.

More likely they were using an vacuum evaporation system to save energy. These system are made in Germany, one manufacturer is Kaspar Schultz of Bamberg. Look for the odd gizmo in the brewhouse picture gallery. It is behind the large kettle in the first picture.
http://www.kaspar-schulz.com/index.php?article_id=22&clang=1#

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Offline FirstStateBrewer

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2012, 05:44:54 AM »
The highest point in Germany, the Zugspitze peak in the Bavarian Alps, is only a little higher than where Sean lives.

More likely they were using an vacuum evaporation system to save energy. These system are made in Germany, one manufacturer is Kaspar Schultz of Bamberg. Look for the odd gizmo in the brewhouse picture gallery. It is behind the large kettle in the first picture.
http://www.kaspar-schulz.com/index.php?article_id=22&clang=1#
Very interesting!  The tour guide didn't mention anything like that and it was back in 2002, so I don't know if that device would have been around back then.  But, I'm sure they were saving energy somehow. 
Scott B

Offline nateo

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2012, 05:48:49 AM »
Very interesting!  The tour guide didn't mention anything like that and it was back in 2002, so I don't know if that device would have been around back then.  But, I'm sure they were saving energy somehow.

They use those vac-evaps for making malt extract. On an industrial scale, energy bills add up. I wonder how they're getting their hot break? I guess if you leave it at 90*C long enough you'll get break to form?
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2012, 06:18:54 AM »
I believe it forces it to boil at a lower temp, that's the point. I remember reading about them a little but know very little about them.
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Offline richardt

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2012, 06:36:49 AM »
90 C = 194 F.  Proteins denature at temperatures lower than that, so I wouldn't expect to see any issues with an inadequate "hot break."  The vacuum-evaporation systems simply reduce the surface tension required for boiling, and thereby reduce the energy (and $$) needed to produce beer.

You may remember one of the BJCP exam questions had to do with explaining why boiling wort was important to making good beer, namely:
  • Extracts, isomerizes, and dissolves the hop alpha acids
  • Stops enzymatic activity
  • Kills bacteria, fungi, and wild yeast
  • Coagulates undesired proteins and polyphenols in the hot break
  • Evaporates undesirable harsh hop oils, sulfur compounds, ketones, and esters
  • Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars
  • Evaporates water vapor, condensing the wort to the proper volume and gravity

You're still achieving all these goals with a vac-evap system.  Pretty brilliant, those German systems, I'd say.

Offline FirstStateBrewer

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2012, 07:20:54 AM »
90 C = 194 F.  Proteins denature at temperatures lower than that, so I wouldn't expect to see any issues with an inadequate "hot break."  The vacuum-evaporation systems simply reduce the surface tension required for boiling, and thereby reduce the energy (and $$) needed to produce beer.

You may remember one of the BJCP exam questions had to do with explaining why boiling wort was important to making good beer, namely:
  • Extracts, isomerizes, and dissolves the hop alpha acids
  • Stops enzymatic activity
  • Kills bacteria, fungi, and wild yeast
  • Coagulates undesired proteins and polyphenols in the hot break
  • Evaporates undesirable harsh hop oils, sulfur compounds, ketones, and esters
  • Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars
  • Evaporates water vapor, condensing the wort to the proper volume and gravity

You're still achieving all these goals with a vac-evap system.  Pretty brilliant, those German systems, I'd say.
That's great info!  Thanks!
Scott B

Offline a10t2

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2012, 07:54:23 AM »
The tour guide didn't mention anything like that and it was back in 2002, so I don't know if that device would have been around back then.

Here in the US, the big lager breweries have been using them since at least the 80s.
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Offline FirstStateBrewer

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2012, 08:01:11 AM »
The tour guide didn't mention anything like that and it was back in 2002, so I don't know if that device would have been around back then.

Here in the US, the big lager breweries have been using them since at least the 80s.
Really?  Well, maybe that solves the puzzle, then!  Thanks!
Scott B

Offline narcout

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2012, 04:29:57 PM »
  • Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars

Everything I've read suggests that sugars do not caramelize during normal wort boiling.  The temperature is too low. 

Offline nateo

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Re: Brewers have all kinds of beliefs
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2012, 05:17:47 PM »
Everything I've read suggests that sugars do not caramelize during normal wort boiling.  The temperature is too low.

Well, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. . .

From: http://brewery.org/library/Maillard_CS0497.html
"MAILLARD browning reactions involve simple sugars and amino acids and simple peptides. They proceed during the kilning of malt, and during wort boiling. They begin to occur at lower temperatures and at higher dilutions than caramelisation. The rate can increase by 2-3 times for each 10C rise in temperature. However even long term storage of malt extract will Maillard-brown at room temperature. Prize winning dark beers have been coloured by this method as they had none of the harshness of some high temperature Maillard reactions in roasted malts.

Maillard reactions have three basic phases. 1/The initial reaction is the condensation of an amino acid with a simple sugar, which loses a molecule of water to form N-substituted aldosylamine. This is unstable and undergoes the famous "Amadori rearrangement" to form "1-amino-1-deoxy-2-ketoses" (known as "ketosamines") which can undergo complex subsequent dehydration, fission and polymerization reactions.

But wait, I here you say! "A sugar loses a water molecule and undergoes further dehydration?" Sounds like a Caramelisation reaction?

*And it is!* One of the reasons Caramel and Maillard reactions are confused in brewing and food processing literature is that one of the Maillard paths is a simple Caramel reaction, catalysed by amino acids. But now in Maillard, there are a few guys called Schiff, Amadori and Strecker in your beer!"
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 05:19:24 PM by nateo »
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