Author Topic: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted  (Read 4370 times)

Offline mabrungard

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Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« on: May 03, 2012, 06:35:25 AM »
I've posted an updated version of Bru'n Water includes significant improvement to the User Interface and corrects an error in mash pH estimation that occurs when batch size changes. 

Enjoy!
Martin B
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Offline narvin

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 06:40:54 AM »
Thanks Martin!  I will check this out today.
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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 01:14:10 PM »
 Cool! Thanks Martin.

Offline dcbc

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 02:20:38 PM »
Hi, Martin,

I have a question.  I missed version 1.11, but have been using version 1.10. 

I put in the grist bill for a Saison into 1.12 and the amount of acid required to get to a room temp pH of 5.3 was 5.8 ml.  If I do the same grain bill in 1.10, I hit 5.3 without any acid or salt additions. 

Having read your thoughts on lighter beers, and having recently switched to your calculator from Palmers, I have become accustomed to lower acid additions.  Since this is such a drastic increase, I figured I'd mention it since it seems so out of whack with previous calculations.
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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 03:03:21 PM »
Thanks Martin!
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 08:24:13 AM »
Hi, Martin,

I have a question.  I missed version 1.11, but have been using version 1.10. 

I put in the grist bill for a Saison into 1.12 and the amount of acid required to get to a room temp pH of 5.3 was 5.8 ml.  If I do the same grain bill in 1.10, I hit 5.3 without any acid or salt additions. 

Having read your thoughts on lighter beers, and having recently switched to your calculator from Palmers, I have become accustomed to lower acid additions.  Since this is such a drastic increase, I figured I'd mention it since it seems so out of whack with previous calculations.

You are witnessing the problem that I point out.  From what I can tell from your description, you were probably assuming the use of low alkalinity water like RO.  With the grain bill inserted, the acidity that the grain contributes is a constant.  But its effect on the acidity of the water its mixed with wasn't properly accounted for. 

To illustrate, in v1.10 you can dial up the volume of mash water significantly and not see much movement in the pH prediction when the RA of your mashing water is very low.  That is not what would actually happen in the mash.  The finite quantity of grain acidity would be further diluted (even in water with low RA) and the ability for that grain to depress the mash pH would be diminished.  v1.12 fixes that fault. 
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

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Offline narcout

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 09:20:15 AM »
I've been a longtime user of Kai's spreadsheet but am looking forward to playing around with this one as well.  Thanks, Martin. 

Is there a way to toggle the mineral additions between those added to the mash only and those added to the mash and the sparge? 

Similarly, is there a way to toggle between the resulting profile for the mash water and for the overall (mash plus sparge) water?

Those are two features of Kai's spreadsheet that I find really useful.


Online tygo

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 12:23:44 PM »
None of the water spreadsheets, including this new version of Bru'n water, has allowed me to accurately predict my mash pH.  I've had the best success with trial and error.

I brewed a big wee heavy today and used the new version of the spreadsheet. 29.5 lbs of MO and 0.5 lbs roasted barley.  Put everything into the spreadsheet.  Predicted mash pH at room temperature 5.2.  Okay, that's too low.  I don't have pickling lime so I dissolved 2g of chalk in 2L of distilled water under 20lbs CO2 pressure.  It didn't completely dissolve but I went with it since I only have one carb cap.  Bru'n water says room temp mash pH will be 5.4.  Cool.  I'm skeptical because prior experience has taught me that this probably isn't right, but given all the talk here about water chemistry I'll give it a shot.

Actual mash pH at room temp (70F)?  5.86.  So I added 10 ml of 10% phosphoric acid to get it back down into a reasonable range. 

Now, my water report is a couple months old.  I'm due for a new one.  But the four reports I've had run in the last 2 years haven't returned radically different results.  pH meter is a Milwaukee SM101 that I calibrated last night.

So what am I doing wrong here?
Clint
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 12:51:52 PM »
None of the water spreadsheets, including this new version of Bru'n water, has allowed me to accurately predict my mash pH.  I've had the best success with trial and error.

I brewed a big wee heavy today and used the new version of the spreadsheet. 29.5 lbs of MO and 0.5 lbs roasted barley.  Put everything into the spreadsheet.  Predicted mash pH at room temperature 5.2.  Okay, that's too low.  I don't have pickling lime so I dissolved 2g of chalk in 2L of distilled water under 20lbs CO2 pressure.  It didn't completely dissolve but I went with it since I only have one carb cap.  Bru'n water says room temp mash pH will be 5.4.  Cool.  I'm skeptical because prior experience has taught me that this probably isn't right, but given all the talk here about water chemistry I'll give it a shot.

Actual mash pH at room temp (70F)?  5.86.  So I added 10 ml of 10% phosphoric acid to get it back down into a reasonable range. 

Now, my water report is a couple months old.  I'm due for a new one.  But the four reports I've had run in the last 2 years haven't returned radically different results.  pH meter is a Milwaukee SM101 that I calibrated last night.

So what am I doing wrong here?

4 reports in 2 years, but how many different seasons, recent weather changes, snow melt levels, etc etc have happened in that time. I'm not saying this is absolutely what happened but you still do not have enough data points to rule out water changes as a culprit.
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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 01:13:49 PM »
you still do not have enough data points to rule out water changes as a culprit.

Nope.  But like I said, they've been fairly consistent.  And the last one was in January.  No snow, not much in the way of weather changes.  I'll be sending in for a new one shortly and I bet it'll be pretty close to the last one.

And when I use the trial and error approach it comes out pretty much the same every time.  Trial and error approach being, "When I brew this beer I need to add X ml of phosphoric acid to hit my desired mash pH" or whatever the case may be.  If my water was fluctuating wildly I would think that would not be the case.

Also, I get the same results when I'm building water up from distilled.

I'd actually given up on the water spreadsheets completely since that's been working fine for me but I figured I'd give the new version of this one a whirl.


« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 01:16:32 PM by tygo »
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Offline nateo

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 02:19:17 PM »
Bru'n water has been reliable for me. It's almost always within +/-0.1. I test my alkalinity and hardness by titration every batch, though. If I had to make a WAG, it'd be that your water's alkalinity, hardness, or both aren't consistent.

EDIT: Reread Tygo's post. Whoops, missed the part about distilled water. I fail reading comprehension for the day.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 02:22:35 PM by nateo »
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Offline dcbc

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 02:22:10 PM »
Hi, Martin,

I have a question.  I missed version 1.11, but have been using version 1.10. 

I put in the grist bill for a Saison into 1.12 and the amount of acid required to get to a room temp pH of 5.3 was 5.8 ml.  If I do the same grain bill in 1.10, I hit 5.3 without any acid or salt additions. 

Having read your thoughts on lighter beers, and having recently switched to your calculator from Palmers, I have become accustomed to lower acid additions.  Since this is such a drastic increase, I figured I'd mention it since it seems so out of whack with previous calculations.

You are witnessing the problem that I point out.  From what I can tell from your description, you were probably assuming the use of low alkalinity water like RO.  With the grain bill inserted, the acidity that the grain contributes is a constant.  But its effect on the acidity of the water its mixed with wasn't properly accounted for. 

To illustrate, in v1.10 you can dial up the volume of mash water significantly and not see much movement in the pH prediction when the RA of your mashing water is very low.  That is not what would actually happen in the mash.  The finite quantity of grain acidity would be further diluted (even in water with low RA) and the ability for that grain to depress the mash pH would be diminished.  v1.12 fixes that fault.

Okay, so you're saying that 1.12's suggested acid addition of 5.8 ml is correct?  Got it.  Thanks again.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2012, 02:23:27 PM »

I brewed a big wee heavy today and used the new version of the spreadsheet. 29.5 lbs of MO and 0.5 lbs roasted barley.  Put everything into the spreadsheet.  Predicted mash pH at room temperature 5.2. 

You do seem to be entering something wrong.  I just put that grain bill into my sheet and assumed that I had 10 gal of distilled water with enough CaCl to bring the Ca content to 50 ppm.  That reports a pH around 5.4.  Unless you've put in a lot more calcium or magnesium, the mash pH should not be less than that. 

Revisit your entries.  Sorry for your results.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 02:26:47 PM by mabrungard »
Martin B
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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2012, 05:30:06 PM »
Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post.  I wasn't using distilled water for this brew, I was using my tap water, treated with campden, and with the addition of 2g of partially dissolved chalk.

Like I said, this water report is a few months old at this point.  Maybe it is that my water is highly variable.  I dunno.

pH   7.5
Na   15
K   2
Ca   27
Mg   7
Total Hardness, CaCO3   97
Nitrate   1.2
Sulfate, SO4-S   9
Cl   26
Bicarbonate, HCO3   72
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3   59

Clint
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Fermenting: Wit
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water v 1.12 Posted
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2012, 07:10:27 PM »
I only mentioned that I assumed distilled water as it would result in the lowest possible predicted mash pH.  Your actual water with a little CaCL to bring the Ca level up to 50 ppm shows 5.6 pH if I use 10 gallons of mash water.  That provides a reasonable 1.33 qt/lb water to grist ratio.  I am not sure how the program directed you to add more alkalinity.  I would like to see your inputs so that I can assess if there is something I should clarify to help users avoid a similar problem.

Maybe you could send me a copy of your spreadsheet with the data in it and I can see if there is a problem?
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

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