[nateo]

I've struggled with getting my saisons to really finish dry enough, and I've used all the "usual" saison yeasts, and a few of the typical Belgian yeasts. So far the best "saison" I've made was 1/2 "normal" saison, dry hopped, and 1/2 dry mead (1.000), also dry hopped. I'm a firm believer in brewing to taste, not to style, so I'm happy with it. The wife said it was one of the best things I've ever made, and she doesn't praise my brewing unless it deserves it. She's usually the first one to tell me when my beer turns out not-so-great.

There seems to be a 20% ceiling for sugar additions. Homebrewers don't seem to like going over that, but the saison I'm describing above was basically 50% honey. So I guess don't be afraid of a little (or a lot of) sugar. As long as you can control the ferm temp, you should be fine using quite a lot of simple sugars.

[majorvices]

With the French saison strain I regularly get 95% aa with zero sugar. I do perform a 2 hour mash at 146-148.

[nateo]

With the French saison strain I regularly get 95% aa with zero sugar. I do perform a 2 hour mash at 146-148.

I suspect there's a lot more to perceptions of dryness than just apparent attenuation though. I've had beers finish at 1.010 that were drier than others that finished much lower. Maybe the difference between real and potential attenuation?

I wonder too if it's related to the unfermentable sugars and proteins in the wort. A higher percentage of simple sugars means relatively lower percentages of dextrins and protein.

I should add I like to use a good amount (1-2oz) of French oak to get some tannins for extra dryness. I like my beer dry, and my saisons drrrrrrrrrrryyyyyy.

[majorvices]

Sure, if your talking about perception. That's entirely subjective, though.

[nateo]

Sure, if your talking about perception. That's entirely subjective, though.

How else can you enjoy beer, if not subjectively?

[majorvices]

difference is, different people have different perceptions.

[nateo]

difference is, different people have different perceptions.

"All the world old is queer save thee and me, and even thou art a little queer." That's one of my mom's favorite sayings. My mom is pretty weird. I wonder where I get it from?

[ajk]

I suspect there's a lot more to perceptions of dryness than just apparent attenuation though.

Sure.  Hop bitterness would affect dryness in a Saison.  Also, alcohol can have a sweet flavor that can detract from your perception of dryness.

[majorvices]

FWIW Nateo, I think you are 100% correct and I think it is mostly yeast driven. Some beers ferment out super dry but the yeast flavor makes them taste "fuller" than they are according to our methods of measuring. I really don't know what the chemistry is behind it but I do find it interesting.

[tschmidlin]

Glycerol production during fermentation will vary according to yeast strain and fermentation conditions.  The more there is the fuller the mouthfeel.  It may be something else, but this could be the reason for the difference.

[snowtiger87]

I like WY 3711 for dryness and slight pepper flavor and I like WLP 565 for general funky flavor so I have starting using both together.

[majorvices]

Glycerol production during fermentation will vary according to yeast strain and fermentation conditions.  The more there is the fuller the mouthfeel.  It may be something else, but this could be the reason for the difference.

I figured some smart person would chime in with at least part of the answer. now, how does one control glycerol formation, or is it totally dependent on yeast strain?

[nateo]

If glycerol is responsible for mouthfeel, that would start explaining the studies I've heard about where light lagers were dosed with large amounts of dextrin with no discernible difference in mouthfeel.

Also, some wine yeast are known to provide more "structure" during fermentation than others. I suspect 3711 is related to one of those wine yeasts. 

[tschmidlin]

Glycerol production during fermentation will vary according to yeast strain and fermentation conditions.  The more there is the fuller the mouthfeel.  It may be something else, but this could be the reason for the difference.

I figured some smart person would chime in with at least part of the answer. now, how does one control glycerol formation, or is it totally dependent on yeast strain?

There are things that will affect it, but I need to do a lot more reading to come up with a definitive answer for how to do it in an actual beer fermentation.  Pitching rate, aeration rates, fermentation temp and pH will all have effects.  It is strain dependent, but that's not the only factor.

If glycerol is responsible for mouthfeel, that would start explaining the studies I've heard about where light lagers were dosed with large amounts of dextrin with no discernible difference in mouthfeel.

Well, it affects mouthfeel but I doubt it's the only thing.  Those studies make no sense to me, because I've used dextrin to increase mouthfeel and it's worked.

[andyi]

I always get a "silky" mouthfeel and noticable dryness with 3711 using no sugar in my 1.050s saisons.  I mash in the low 150Fs for 75-90min and aim for an FG of 1.006.
 
For my light saisons, if the FG is any lower, the dryness overwhelms the other yeast characteristics.