Author Topic: Bru'n Water weirdness  (Read 2341 times)

Offline narvin

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Bru'n Water weirdness
« on: May 02, 2012, 01:31:10 PM »
After all the discussion about alkalinity in the pickling lime thread, I was playing around with some recipes in Bru'n Water today.  I created a basic test recipe for a beer of about 50 SRM:

12 lbs 2-row
3 lb crystal 20
1.5 lb roasted barley
5 gallon mash (1.21 qt/lbs)

I added salts to get my water to approximate the "black malty" profile, and the mash pH estimate came out to be 5.5.  Great!  But then I scaled the grain and water 3x for a 15 gallon recipe, and the pH estimate changed to 5.3.  Huh?? 

Am I doing something wrong?  I can't think of any reason that the results aren't independent of batch size.  The grain and water were both scaled proportionally, and salt additions scale automatically since they are written in g/gal.
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Chris S.

Offline ccfoo242

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 03:10:20 PM »
I'll guess that the pH doesn't scale linearly but I know nothing...just chiming in...  ;D

Intra cervisiam est deus.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 06:15:49 AM »
No, its an error in the program and the way things are calculated on the mash acidification sheet.  I noticed it a couple of weeks ago.  The pH is correlated to the milliequivalents of Net Mash Acidity.  That works most of the time, but that approach breaks down as the batch size deviates from the typical homebrew batch size.  The proper approach is to normalize the acidity into milliequivalents per liter.  That way the size of batch never influences the result. 

I've uploaded an important update to Bru'n Water that corrects that error and provides significant improvements in the User Interface.   Do try it out.  The pH estimation algorthym has also been tightened a bit, based on continued data collection from users.  So there should typically be a slight increase in the pH estimated in version 1.12 compared to version 1.10.  Those brewers that were brewing batches much larger than the typical 5 gal batch may see more substantial pH difference. 

My apologies for not recognizing this error sooner.

Enjoy!
Martin B
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Offline ccfoo242

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 06:59:02 AM »
Hey Martin
Thanks for the update. I'm trying to add some grains but I can't select a different Grain Type from the dropdown, it complains that the cell is protected or read only.

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 07:18:46 AM »
Sorry, its fixed now.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

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Offline ccfoo242

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 08:18:51 AM »
Great, thank you! I'll be brewing this Saturday so I'll see if there's any change.

Intra cervisiam est deus.

Offline denny

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2012, 08:23:07 AM »
Martin, you rock!  Thanks so much for your work.
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Offline Alewyfe

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2012, 08:40:04 AM »
Martin, you rock!  Thanks so much for your work.

+1  I really don't understand water chemistry,  but I had been using every method/program previously available to try and get a handle on it.  Bru'n water has given me the best tasting results and the understanding water portion has given me a lot more confidence about making these adjustments. Thank you Martin for sharing your work on a subject elusive to many of us.
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Offline nateo

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 08:55:31 AM »
I've uploaded an important update to Bru'n Water that corrects that error and provides significant improvements in the User Interface.   

I don't use the term "hero" very often, but you sir. . .
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Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 09:01:20 AM »
Martin, you rock!  Thanks so much for your work.

+1 This tool is going to help make a lot of better brewers.
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Offline ccfoo242

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 09:03:48 AM »
I'm still not throwing out my chicken foot just yet.  :P

-Sent from the future.

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Offline gandelf

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2012, 11:58:15 AM »
My well is 127' deep in red granite. Bru'n Water is the ONLY tool that enables
me to use some of it in all most all batches. Thanks Martin
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Offline redzim

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 12:01:12 PM »
Those brewers that were brewing batches much larger than the typical 5 gal batch may see more substantial pH difference. 


True!  I've used Brun Water for over a year in tandem with Kai's spreadsheet, for beers paler than amber, starting with distilled water and adding stuff in.  Brunwater always gave me a predicted pH of 5.2 whenever I did a 10 gal batch, while Kai's mostly predicted (pretty accurately) in the 5.4 -5.6 range (of course recipe/batch-dependent). Today I download Martin's fix and worked up the water additions for a Jever-style pils recipe that I've brewed 3 times before, and Brunwater now predicts 5.5, in line with Kai's predicted 5.46.   

Thank you Martin!

-red

Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2012, 06:37:57 AM »
Martin, you rock!  Thanks so much for your work.

+1 This tool is going to help make a lot of better brewers.

+1, I like to think Im one of them. Thank you very much Martin, your spreadsheet has helped me create water profiles and produce much better beer!
Jason
-Head Brewer, Brewtus Brewers in the Shenango Valley. Hopefully opening a brewpub/nano brewery in the next couple years.

Offline davidgzach

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Re: Bru'n Water weirdness
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2012, 09:11:36 AM »
Martin, you rock!  Thanks so much for your work.

+1 This tool is going to help make a lot of better brewers.

+1, I like to think Im one of them. Thank you very much Martin, your spreadsheet has helped me create water profiles and produce much better beer!

Ditto!
Dave Zach