[ccfoo242]

Hello all!

I'd like to brew the Can You Brew It Lagunitas Censored clone this weekend and I'd like to get some opinions about hop substitutions. I'm not concerned about actually cloning the beer, I'd just like to get it in the ballpark...ok, maybe just the parking lot of the ballpark! 

The recipe is copied from here: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=&t=14105

6 Gal. batch (in the fermenter)
OG: 1.066
FG: 1.018-1.020
SRM: 12.9
IBU: 35

11.82# American Two Row
1.58# Munich (10L)
1.27# Wheat Malt
1.03# Crystal 60L
0.07# Roasted Barley ~450L

27g Willamette 4.6% @ 60min 
4.6g Horizon 12% @ 60min       
16g Willamette 4.6% @ 30min   
2.3g Centennial 9% @ 30min     
4.6g Cascade 5.75% @ 30min   
9g Centennial 9% @ 1 min
9g Liberty 4% @ 1 min

Mash Temp: 156F, Boil Time 60min

English yeast : WLP002
Ferment Temp: 66F

Here's the hops I have in decent quantities:
Columbus
Magnum
Hallertauer Mittelfrueh
Northern Brewer
Sterling
Summit
Willamette
Zythos

So, should I sub Horizon with Magum, Liberty with Hal. Mittelfrueh, and Centennial/Cascade with Summit?

[denny]

How close do you want to be?  If real close, Summit won't sub.  If not so close, you got it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[erockrph]

I honestly don't know if it will get you closer, but if it were me, I'd do a little Columbus along with the Summit in the flameout addition. Not a lot, but maybe a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of Summit to Columbus.

[ccfoo242]

Well, I got the substitutions from http://www.brew365.com/hop_substitution_chart.php

I just don't want it to taste like crap AND save a few dollars so I don't have to buy more hops.

I figured since both cascade and centennial have summit listed as alternatives that i could just swap them both out.

[denny]

I definitely don't think it will taste like crap...probably pretty good.  But IMO Summit isn't a lot like Cascade/Centennial so it'll be different.  If that's OK, go for it!

[ccfoo242]

I definitely don't think it will taste like crap...probably pretty good.  But IMO Summit isn't a lot like Cascade/Centennial so it'll be different.  If that's OK, go for it!

  Cool.  I started entering the recipe in Beersmith as "CYBI Lagunitas Censored" and now I've changed the name to "Not Lagunitas Censored." I swapped out the roasted barley for some chocolate malt and cut back on the pale malt to bring the OG down.

Here's where I'm at.  As always, all criticism is welcome:

Recipe: Not Lagunitas Censored
Brewer: Steve
Style: American Amber Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.50 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal   
Bottling Volume: 5.10 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated FG: 1.014 SG
Estimated Color: 14.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 34.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 79.5 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
9 lbs 4.0 oz          Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM)   Grain         1        77.1 %       
1 lbs                 Munich 10L (Briess) (10.0 SRM)           Grain         2        8.3 %         
12.0 oz               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)    Grain         3        6.3 %         
12.0 oz               Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM)   Grain         4        6.3 %         
4.0 oz                Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)               Grain         5        2.1 %         
27.00 g               Willamette [4.60 %] - Boil 60.0 min      Hop           6        13.7 IBUs     
16.00 g               Willamette [4.60 %] - Boil 30.0 min      Hop           7        6.3 IBUs     
9.00 g                Summit [17.60 %] - Boil 30.0 min         Hop           8        13.5 IBUs     
9.00 g                Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.70 %] - Boil 1.0 min  Hop           9        0.2 IBUs     
5.00 g                Summit [17.60 %] - Boil 1.0 min          Hop           10       0.4 IBUs     
1.0 pkg               California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast         11       -             
14.00 g               Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.70 %] - Dry H Hop           12       0.0 IBUs     

Mash @ 156.0 F       60 min       

[ccfoo242]

I honestly don't know if it will get you closer, but if it were me, I'd do a little Columbus along with the Summit in the flameout addition. Not a lot, but maybe a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of Summit to Columbus.

What kind of aroma/flavor would columbus contribute as opposed to Hal. Mit.?

[denny]

I honestly don't know if it will get you closer, but if it were me, I'd do a little Columbus along with the Summit in the flameout addition. Not a lot, but maybe a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of Summit to Columbus.

What kind of aroma/flavor would columbus contribute as opposed to Hal. Mit.?

Completely different.  Hall. Mit. is floral and a bit spicy.  Columbus is dank with citrus notes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[jmcamerlengo]

Isn't Zythos a blend of some of the C hops?

[erockrph]

I honestly don't know if it will get you closer, but if it were me, I'd do a little Columbus along with the Summit in the flameout addition. Not a lot, but maybe a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of Summit to Columbus.

What kind of aroma/flavor would columbus contribute as opposed to Hal. Mit.?

I didn't mean instead of the Hallertau. I meant replacing the flameout addition of Centennial with a mix of Summit and Columbus. It may take you from "Yep, that's Summit" to "well, there's definitely some citrus going on here". I doubt it will take you all the way to "Yep, that's Centennial", though. Any way you slice it, you'll have a damn fine beer.

[ccfoo242]

Well thanks for the suggestions and info. I'm going to have to wait a few weeks to brew again but I'll try this when I do. Dang real life getting in the way!

[richardt]

If you're waiting 2-3 weeks anyway... you could just get the original ingredients.   

If you're just wanting to use up your stock, then I would use:

Willamette and Magnum at 60 min. 
   Horizon (10-16.5% AA) and Magnum (12-14% AA) are both known for clean bittering.

Willamette (4-6% AA) and Zythos (10-11% AA) at 30 min. 
   Zythos will get you inside the ballpark .
   Cascade (4.5-7% AA; flowery, citrusy, grapefruit aroma).
   Centennial (9.5-11%AA; strong citrus and pine aroma). 
   Zythos description:  Tangerine, Citrus, floral, pine and Grapefruit character.
   You might need to dial back the amount of Zythos, or
   add the same amount later in the boil to keep IBU's the same.

Granted, Summit is a consideration given its intense citrus aroma and tangerine, mandarin, and grapefruit flavors, but the very high AA (17-19%) would drive your IBU's too high if added at the 30 min mark--you might need to move the Summit addition to the 15 min mark and watch your IBU contribution from this hop.

Zythos and Hallertauer Mittelfruh at 1 min. 
   Liberty (3-5% AA) is a Mittlefruh cross with similar character to hallertau.

I would not use:
   Columbus--14-16%AA; pungent, onion/garlic/dank character
   Northern Brewer--8-10%; good bittering; neutral flavor, distinctive dry hop aroma.
   Sterling--6-9% AA; Herbal, spicy, hint of floral and citrus; combo of saaz and mt hood characteristics.

Your Munich (0.58# under), Crystal (4.0 oz under), and Wheat (0.52# under) additions are all short of the original recipe.  It may or may not make a perceptable difference.

I would also note your roasted grain additions are not quite the same:
Original recipe:  0.07# of Roasted Barley (450L) = 1.12 oz  and SRM = 12.9
Your recipe:       0.25# of Chocolate malt (350L) = 4 oz       and SRM =14.7
I think this difference would be perceptable.  I would dial back the chocolate malt to 2 oz.

Looks great.  Good luck.

[ccfoo242]

If you're waiting 2-3 weeks anyway... you could just get the original ingredients.   

But that would make too much sense!

If you're just wanting to use up your stock, then I would use:

Willamette and Magnum at 60 min. 
   Horizon (10-16.5% AA) and Magnum (12-14% AA) are both known for clean bittering.

Willamette (4-6% AA) and Zythos (10-11% AA) at 30 min. 
   Zythos will get you inside the ballpark .
   Cascade (4.5-7% AA; flowery, citrusy, grapefruit aroma).
   Centennial (9.5-11%AA; strong citrus and pine aroma). 
   Zythos description:  Tangerine, Citrus, floral, pine and Grapefruit character.
   You might need to dial back the amount of Zythos, or
   add the same amount later in the boil to keep IBU's the same.

Granted, Summit is a consideration given its intense citrus aroma and tangerine, mandarin, and grapefruit flavors, but the very high AA (17-19%) would drive your IBU's too high if added at the 30 min mark--you might need to move the Summit addition to the 15 min mark and watch your IBU contribution from this hop.

Hmm...decisions, decisions... I think I'll keep the Summit but move it up to 15 minutes.

Your Munich (0.58# under), Crystal (4.0 oz under), and Wheat (0.52# under) additions are all short of the original recipe.  It may or may not make a perceptable difference.

Well, after I saw I wasn't going to be that close I decided to just wing it. The original beer is a bit stronger and definitely too strong for the style if I want to enter it so I a) scaled up to my efficiency of 70% from 65% then b) scaled down to a lower OG.

I switched to chocolate malt after looking around at some other recipes. Many of them used 4 oz or more, but do you think that will overpower everything else?

[richardt]

With regards to the chocolate vs roasted barley question, there are two issues:  color and flavor.

Both grains will contribute a dark color to the beer with small additions (1-4 oz).

If you only want a darker color, but not the roastiness, then keep the amounts low (1 oz) and consider cold steeping and/or use of sinimar.

If you want both, then slightly higher amounts are OK.

roasted barley is pretty distinctive tasting (see dry stouts).

When you drink the Lagunitas Censored beer, do you perceive a significant roast flavor or aroma? 
I don't think you would.  It is categorized as an American Amber Ale (or Red Ale), so I think you'll want to restrain the amount of roasted grains.

[ccfoo242]

When you drink the Lagunitas Censored beer, do you perceive a significant roast flavor or aroma? 
I don't think you would.  It is categorized as an American Amber Ale (or Red Ale), so I think you'll want to restrain the amount of roasted grains.

Ah, true. Looking back at the original it called for 1.1 ounces in 15 lbs of grain.  Thanks, I'll scale it back to 2 oz. It's definitely not Censored now (and I'm ok with that as long as it doesn't taste like dirt or ass!) but at least I'm learning a few things along the way. I'll update it tonight and repost.