Author Topic: Rookie Needs A Lil Help  (Read 6424 times)

Offline hooter

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2012, 12:23:07 AM »
There are very nearly no harmful organisms that can live in beer, or even wort for that matter. Now, something that can taste so nasty as to make you lose your lunch...

No known pathogen can live in beer.  Not sure (doubtful actually) if this is true about wort.  This is a very sugary substance that bacteria and whatnot of all kinds are fighting each other to get a piece of.  This is why we all do everything possible to encourage a quick start to fermentation.  The quicker the yeast can begin to do their job, the less likely other nasties can move in and do their thing.  Then again, a cheap pack of dry yeast is a small price to pay to see what happens.  I just hope you don't actually lose your lunch over this little experiment because that would be no fun at all.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 12:26:42 AM by hooter »

Online jeffy

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2829
  • Tampa, Fl
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2012, 04:25:58 AM »
I talked to an award winning homebrewer a couple years ago who stored unfermented wort for months, sometimes years before pitching yeast and fermenting.  He seemed to think it made the wort better, sorta like spaghetti sauce is better the next day......
As long as your vessel was sanitized, you should be fine repitching.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline davidgzach

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1659
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2012, 04:44:22 AM »
Taste it before dumping.  Always.  If it doesn't taste nasty I would pitch yeast and see what happens.  It's low risk.

+1.  You may have messed up on pitching the yeast, but maybe you were exceptionally good in sanitizing!  Smell, then taste.  You'll know if it's bad or not after a month.  Good luck!

Dave
Dave Zach

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 7884
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2012, 04:45:30 AM »
Well, you guys are braver than I am. I'd dump that crap and start over again.
Keith Y.

Vote Jonathan Fuller for Governing Committee!

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8808
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2012, 04:59:00 AM »
Chances are you will have some off flavors even if you decide to pitch more yeast, but that being said I recommend pitching more yeast for experimentation value at a minimum.  You never know what can happen.  The worst case scenario is that you'll dump it. I also recommend reading "How to Brew" by John Palmer or you can got to http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html.
Ron Price

Offline madscientist

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2012, 05:36:22 AM »
What everyone else said... Don't get discouraged.  As homebrewers we all learn from mistakes like this.  Definately pick up How to Brew and I would also reccommend the Complete Joy of Homebrewing. 
Homebrewed since 2010

Offline theoman

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
  • Outskirts of Brussels, Belgium
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 06:29:51 AM »
I'm with the "don't give up yet" crew. If it doesn't taste horrible at this point, throw in some yeast. You might not the characteristics you're looking for, but something drinkable is better than nothing at all.

Offline rightasrain

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2012, 08:44:02 AM »
I talked to an award winning homebrewer a couple years ago who stored unfermented wort for months, sometimes years before pitching yeast and fermenting.  He seemed to think it made the wort better, sorta like spaghetti sauce is better the next day......
As long as your vessel was sanitized, you should be fine repitching.

Good point if you sanitized and the vessel holding your wort was airtight. I don't think anything could have gotten in. I had a beer get me sick once. Not sure what went on in that batch. I ditched that recipe. I knew after the first beer though. Of course I didn't stop after my tummy started to feel a bit quant and I really regretted drinking anymore. Food poisoning is not my favorite pastime. I'd still go ahead with the batch though. I'm stubborn like that.
"Rogues are willing to shun titles and personal financial success in the  pursuit of the greater good.
Rogues pursue the long shot.
Rogues have respect for diversity.
Rogues work hard.
Rogues are driven to succeed in their chosen field.
Rogues are honest with themselves and others.
Rogues are rebels."
- www.rogue.com

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 13685
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2012, 09:31:09 AM »
The recommendation is to not use wort for starters that's been saved without being pressure canned.  Supposedly there's a risk of botulism.  Based on that, I'd toss the wort.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline Joe Sr.

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2948
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2012, 09:48:14 AM »
I haven't had any beer that had an extended lag time (48 hours +) before actively fermenting turn out well.

Some were certainly "drinkable" but that's a low standard.  A couple were sour and nasty.

I suppose there is no harm in pitching dry yeast and finding out, but IME it's dump it now or dump it later.  Usually, I'm a dump it later kind of person, but I'm changing as I age.

FWIW, I've also heard concerns about botulism with old (and I mean OLD) cans of LME.  In that case, though, my understanding is that the brix of the LME is high enough so that there should be no concerns about botulism.  Diluted wort, on the other hand, I have no idea.  Might not be worth the risk.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline bigchicken

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
  • Lincoln, NE
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2012, 09:49:07 AM »
The recommendation is to not use wort for starters that's been saved without being pressure canned.  Supposedly there's a risk of botulism.  Based on that, I'd toss the wort.

It may be more work than it's worth, but couldn't the wort be boiled again to kill everything off, cooled and then have yeast pitched again? Just a thought to save some money. Maybe this wouldn't work?
TJ Cook
Proud paying member of the AHA since 2013.

On Deck: Split batch 12 gallon TBD
Fermenting: Nothing but sadness.
In bottles: Northern Brewer Dry Irish Stout, Snow Eater Winter Warmer 2012, Apple Wine, Chocolate Cherry Stout

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8808
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2012, 09:49:58 AM »
After further review, I have to agree with Denny. Dump the wort as there is potential for botulism.

Here's an excerpt from BYO magazine.

Botulism Warning
 
In home food preservation, foods are divided into “high-acid” foods, with a pH below 4.6, and “low-acid” foods, with a pH above 4.6. High-acid foods can be safely canned using the boiling water method. It is recommended that low acid foods be canned in a pressure cooker, where the increased pressure means that water boils at 240 °F (116 °C) or higher. The pH of boiled, unfermented wort is around 5.0–5.2, making it a low-acid liquid.

The reason for the high-acid/low-acid distinction is that spores of the bacterium Clostridium botulinum can survive in low-acid foods, even if they have been heated to 212 °F (100 °C). Clostridium botulinum produces 7 different classes of botulinum toxin, labeled A through G, and all are powerful neurotoxins. Botulinum type A, the most toxic, is 15,000 times more potent than VX nerve gas.

Botulinum toxins stop impulses in the nervous system from triggering muscular contractions. Symptoms of botulism usually arise 24–36 hours after exposure to the toxin and include dry mouth, weakness, double vision, vomiting, depressed breathing and a progressively intensifying paralysis leading to death.

The presence of Clostridium spores in raw honey is why doctors recommend not feeding it to infants or small children.

Although spores of the bacteria are found almost everywhere, cases of botulism are actually relatively rare. Most years, around 110 cases are reported in the US, with most occurring in infants or small children that have eaten honey or other affected foods. On average, less than 30 cases per year result from improper home canning.

In fermented wort (i.e. beer), the alcohol content, low pH (4.0–4.4) and anti-bacterial components in hops prevent C. botulinum from surviving. In preserved, unfermented, lightly-hopped wort, it is possible for the bacteria to grow. Although the bacteria will die if the wort is fermented, any toxins produced by the bacteria will not be neutralized.

To minimize the possibility of botulinum poisoning, can your starter wort using a pressure cooker or add acid — such as phosphoric or lactic acid — to your starter wort such that its pH is 4.6 or below if you are using the boiling water method. (High hopping levels alone are likely not enough.)

The boiling water method is presented here because it has been used successfully for many years, but it does allow for the possibility of botulinum poisoning. Although the probability of this is low, the consequences can be severe if it does occur.

Taken from http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/58-yeast/437-canning-yeast-starters
 

Ron Price

Offline saintpierre

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
  • Augusta, ME
    • View Profile
    • www.malthomebrewclub.org
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2012, 09:50:16 AM »
The recommendation is to not use wort for starters that's been saved without being pressure canned.  Supposedly there's a risk of botulism.  Based on that, I'd toss the wort.
+1 My concern with re-use would be the fact there are dead yeast cells that have been in this wort for over a month.
Mike St. Pierre, P.E.
Maine Ale & Libation Tasters (MALT)
BJCP Certified
[719.4, 74.1] AR

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8808
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2012, 09:52:43 AM »
The recommendation is to not use wort for starters that's been saved without being pressure canned.  Supposedly there's a risk of botulism.  Based on that, I'd toss the wort.

It may be more work than it's worth, but couldn't the wort be boiled again to kill everything off, cooled and then have yeast pitched again? Just a thought to save some money. Maybe this wouldn't work?

From what I have learned, botulism spores can survive for up to five hours in boiling water.  Based on this I would dump it as it's not worth the potential risk.
Ron Price

Offline Slowbrew

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1991
  • The Slowly Losing IT Brewery in Urbandale, IA
    • View Profile
Re: Rookie Needs A Lil Help
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2012, 09:55:04 AM »
I don't know that I would ferment it at this point. 

He could still save some of the wort for starters though.  Pull a gallon off and dilute it to 1.030 and the pressure can it.  This would save some of the wort and take care of any botulism issues.  YMMV

Paul
Where the heck are we going?  And what's with this hand basket?