Author Topic: Water Has My Head Spinning...  (Read 15789 times)

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2012, 02:12:10 PM »
Not heaps in your recipe, but CaraMunich is a crystal malt, make sure you take that into account.

Yeah man, all was accounted for when I calculated the Mash Acidification. You are right, only a pound of crystal and like 16lbs of base malt...Doesnt acidify the mash a whole lot...
Sounds like you are getting a handle on it.

For a beer like this having a mash pH around 5.5 would not be a bad thing.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline mmitchem

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2012, 02:17:59 PM »
If I am getting it - it is only because awesome folks like yourself have taken the time to line me out, and it is greatly appreciated :)

With that being said - if I were going to aim for a pH of 5.5 at mash temp, it would be safe to go for around 5.7 at room temp?
Michael P Mitchem
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2012, 02:18:44 PM »
Thats a confusing one to me as well...Ive always measured at room temp and corrected .2 ish lower to get my mash temp since that makes sense to me...if the pH is working at a certain temp then thats whats actually going on in there.

So if I read 5.6 on my pH meter, then Im assuming my pH at sach temps is about 5.4.

That's about right.  5.4 at room temperature is somewhere around 5.2 at mash temperature.  Since that offset is relatively consistent, it makes little sense to damage your pH probe by dunking it in hot wort.  In fact the convention of citing mash pH at room temperature is specifically called out in DeClerck's, A Textbook of Brewing.  I'll have to disagree with Gordon on this issue.  This is the reason that Bru'n Water mentions 'room-temperature measurement' when ever mash pH is discussed or presented.

Using a shot glass that I've pre-chilled, it only takes about a tablespoon of wort to fill the glass sufficiently to submerge a normal pH probe.  That small amount of wort cools down in a minute in that glass.  I suppose you would have to use a larger glass if you have one of those meters with the larger probe end.   
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2012, 02:27:01 PM »

With that being said - if I were going to aim for a pH of 5.5 at mash temp, it would be safe to go for around 5.7 at room temp?

No!  The safe range of room-temperature mash pH is about 5.3 to 5.5.  That indicates that the pH in the mash is 0.2 to 0.3 units lower, but that doesn't really matter.  The only thing we need to focus on is the 'room-temperature measurements'. 

A 5.4 room-temperature pH is a good all-around target.  If you want your beer a little sharper or tarter, aim a little lower (5.2 to 5.3).  If you want your dark beers to be a little softer, aim for 5.5.  But don't get carried away with a high pH target.  All kinds of things go wrong when you exceed about 5.7 to 5.8.  You can be a little low with pH and the beer should taste OK.  But it won't be so good if its a little high.
Martin B
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Offline jeffy

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2012, 02:30:04 PM »

With that being said - if I were going to aim for a pH of 5.5 at mash temp, it would be safe to go for around 5.7 at room temp?

No!  The safe range of room-temperature mash pH is about 5.3 to 5.5.  That indicates that the pH in the mash is 0.2 to 0.3 units lower, but that doesn't really matter.  The only thing we need to focus on is the 'room-temperature measurements'. 

A 5.4 room-temperature pH is a good all-around target.  If you want your beer a little sharper or tarter, aim a little lower (5.2 to 5.3).  If you want your dark beers to be a little softer, aim for 5.5.  But don't get carried away with a high pH target.  All kinds of things go wrong when you exceed about 5.7 to 5.8.  You can be a little low with pH and the beer should taste OK.  But it won't be so good if its a little high.

That's concise.  I was starting to get even more confused for a second there.  I may have to print this and put it in my brewers log.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
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Offline mmitchem

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2012, 02:31:59 PM »
No!  The safe range of room-temperature mash pH is about 5.3 to 5.5.  That indicates that the pH in the mash is 0.2 to 0.3 units lower, but that doesn't really matter.  The only thing we need to focus on is the 'room-temperature measurements'. 

A 5.4 room-temperature pH is a good all-around target.  If you want your beer a little sharper or tarter, aim a little lower (5.2 to 5.3).  If you want your dark beers to be a little softer, aim for 5.5.  But don't get carried away with a high pH target.  All kinds of things go wrong when you exceed about 5.7 to 5.8.  You can be a little low with pH and the beer should taste OK.  But it won't be so good if its a little high.

That's right - NO with exclamation lol.
Roger that - go for the room pH.
Michael P Mitchem
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AHA Member since 2011

Offline mmitchem

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2012, 02:50:04 PM »
Times like these I am thankful that folks like Martin have made such great and useful software available to us. If you find it to be useful, I think donations are the right way to tell him you want more of the same. Thank you all for helping me get some really good prnciples down for building up good brewing water profiles. But more than that - helping me understand what I am looking for in water to make it appropriate for what I am brewing. That sort of knowledge is priceless.

Now I hope I whip up on all of you next NHC haha ;)
Michael P Mitchem
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Offline jimrod

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2012, 12:17:37 AM »
Wow.. reading this thread all the way through and understanding what Martin explained reminded me of a commercial where Charlie Daniels hands a ripped up violin back to the waiter saying " and that's how it's done son ".
The liver is evil and must be punished

Offline mmitchem

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2012, 03:21:08 AM »
Haha, I remember that commercial, think it was Geico or something. Either way, these guys have laid it out for the world, and probably not for the first time either :)
Just solid information that has definitely helped me get a grip on the importance of brewing water, especially pH...
Michael P Mitchem
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2012, 04:32:31 AM »

With that being said - if I were going to aim for a pH of 5.5 at mash temp, it would be safe to go for around 5.7 at room temp?

No!  The safe range of room-temperature mash pH is about 5.3 to 5.5.  That indicates that the pH in the mash is 0.2 to 0.3 units lower, but that doesn't really matter.  The only thing we need to focus on is the 'room-temperature measurements'. 

A 5.4 room-temperature pH is a good all-around target.  If you want your beer a little sharper or tarter, aim a little lower (5.2 to 5.3).  If you want your dark beers to be a little softer, aim for 5.5.  But don't get carried away with a high pH target.  All kinds of things go wrong when you exceed about 5.7 to 5.8.  You can be a little low with pH and the beer should taste OK.  But it won't be so good if its a little high.
That is good to know. Thanks for the clear explaination.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2012, 06:17:23 AM »
Thats a great explanation Martin. Thanks!

MMitchem, in regards to your dopplebock, Ive found that 1 lb of crystal malt is generally the perfect amount to get your pH right with distilled water. I would not add any chalk whatsoever with 1 lb of crystal. Up the clacium chloride and gypsum to get your calcium back up to offset the chalk and get rid of that in your recipe. I bet your pH will fall right into place!
Jason
-Head Brewer, Brewtus Brewers in the Shenango Valley. Hopefully opening a brewpub/nano brewery in the next couple years.

Offline mmitchem

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2012, 06:32:36 AM »
MMitchem, in regards to your dopplebock, Ive found that 1 lb of crystal malt is generally the perfect amount to get your pH right with distilled water. I would not add any chalk whatsoever with 1 lb of crystal. Up the clacium chloride and gypsum to get your calcium back up to offset the chalk and get rid of that in your recipe. I bet your pH will fall right into place!
Using no chalk in the recipe makes the mash pH too low...and it only gets more acidic with the Calcium that is added by Gypsum and CaCl2. The Bicarbonate helps me get around 5.4-5.5 and allows me to have sufficient Ca as well as a solid Sulfate to Chloride ratio...
Michael P Mitchem
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Offline narcout

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2012, 07:36:55 PM »
No!  The safe range of room-temperature mash pH is about 5.3 to 5.5.

It may not be best practice, but I've brewed beers that had a mash pH of 5.6 to 5.7 that turned out great (some of which have won ribbons).

Offline mmitchem

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2012, 07:46:13 PM »
I have too. I am willing to bet higher pH than that! LOL, pretty high scoring too...I guess it just makes me wonder if it would have been that much better, if it could have been the difference between 2nd and 1st place like JP says. Who knows???
I do know that Martin, JP, Gordon Strong, the late Greg Noonan and countless other all believed in water adjustment such as pH and sulfate to chloride ratio. They are far better brewers than me with a ton more experience - so my money is with the adjustments!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 08:27:51 PM by mmitchem »
Michael P Mitchem
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Offline denny

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Re: Water Has My Head Spinning...
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2012, 08:25:03 AM »
Does anyone know of a temp/pH correction chart?  For instance, if the pH is supposed to be a certain number at 70F, I want to find out what it is at 60F.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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