Author Topic: solenoid valve for herms in idiot english please  (Read 894 times)

Offline soymateofeo

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solenoid valve for herms in idiot english please
« on: July 08, 2017, 04:09:57 PM »
ok.  I am struggling to find information.  I have a herms system with a separate vessel for my hot water/heat exchanger.  In that vessel i have a bucket heater on a unistat iia temp controller.  My temps hit 155 all the time just fine and hold well.

Now, I'd like to ditch the heat exchange vessel and use my HLT as a heat source.  I can do a few things. 
1.  I can cycle my pump on and off with the temp controller. This would work but I'd like to circulate continuously because my mind tells me that is better for some reason.

2. I can put a solenoid valve in line so that it opens and closes with the temp controller sending water to the heat exchanger as needed.  ????

My first choice is number 2, but I have no idea how to wire up a solenoid valve.  I know they make 110V valves.  Can I just put a plug on it and plug it into my temp controller?  I have zilcho electrical skills and figure that it can't be that easy.  I see all of these PID dealios and have no desire to go that route unless it can be done on the 3rd grade level, which is where I am.  HELP!

Offline David

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Re: solenoid valve for herms in idiot english please
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2017, 03:56:11 PM »
ok.  I am struggling to find information.  I have a herms system with a separate vessel for my hot water/heat exchanger.  In that vessel i have a bucket heater on a unistat iia temp controller.  My temps hit 155 all the time just fine and hold well.

Now, I'd like to ditch the heat exchange vessel and use my HLT as a heat source.  I can do a few things. 
1.  I can cycle my pump on and off with the temp controller. This would work but I'd like to circulate continuously because my mind tells me that is better for some reason.

2. I can put a solenoid valve in line so that it opens and closes with the temp controller sending water to the heat exchanger as needed.  ????

My first choice is number 2, but I have no idea how to wire up a solenoid valve.  I know they make 110V valves.  Can I just put a plug on it and plug it into my temp controller?  I have zilcho electrical skills and figure that it can't be that easy.  I see all of these PID dealios and have no desire to go that route unless it can be done on the 3rd grade level, which is where I am.  HELP!

You can control a solenoid that way, but ultimately in this instance it would be no different than cycling the pump on and off. Besides, the way you describe would be allowing your pump to deadhead, generally not a good idea.
The best way for temperature control would be a control valve (variable range, not just on or off) this would be part of the PID you mentioned. Not complicated. Basically your temperature controller opens your valve to a point to allow hot water through, if it is not enough, it will open more. Too much closes the valve. Most decent temp controllers would have a built in PID function to make this happen. More expensive models can actually "learn", and can determine to a fairly great degree of accuracy how much to open the valve at any given temperature.

Offline Stevie

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solenoid valve for herms in idiot english please
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2017, 04:09:14 PM »
Most affordable PID controllers I see offer a binary open/closed control. Any variability is done with pulse width modulation. What you describe would need a digital control, maybe with a servo for position awareness. Do you have a link to one that can variable control a valve?

Also, mag drive pumps, like the pumps we use for hot side, can be dead headed without issue. Might not be wise to let it sit for a long time, but dead heading should not harm the pump.

To the OP - I'm confused. Typically HERMS uses a heat exchange coil in the hot liquor tank. The wort is continuously circulated and the controller fires the hot liquor tank to control the heat. Is this how you are operating now? If so, why are you changing?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 04:11:49 PM by Stevie »

Offline David

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Re: solenoid valve for herms in idiot english please
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2017, 05:49:18 PM »
http://www.watlow.com/en/products/controllers/integrated-multi-function-controllers/ez-zone-pm-express

This is an example of the controller I describe. It sends out a variable (analog) signal to control the position of the valve. These are "learning" controllers and thus are expensive (about $170). There are probably less expensive models, I have used these many times at work.

Offline roger

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Re: solenoid valve for herms in idiot english please
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2017, 06:22:49 PM »
I am also a little confused but am assuming the OP cannot automatically control the temperature in the HLT like for his bucket heater. You may be able to manually control the HLT temperature good enough to keep the mash temperature constant. He would have to increase the HLT temperature for sparging, but can do that while lautering.

I know you asked a question about solenoid valves, but a better understanding of what you are trying to accomplish would help. There are many threads on this site which show and explain the basic process concepts.

I also like the idea of constant recirculation and clearer wort, but honestly have no idea if that results in "better" beer.
Cheers,

Roger

Offline Wilbur

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Re: solenoid valve for herms in idiot english please
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 09:39:53 PM »
ok.  I am struggling to find information.  I have a herms system with a separate vessel for my hot water/heat exchanger.  In that vessel i have a bucket heater on a unistat iia temp controller.  My temps hit 155 all the time just fine and hold well.

Now, I'd like to ditch the heat exchange vessel and use my HLT as a heat source.  I can do a few things. 
1.  I can cycle my pump on and off with the temp controller. This would work but I'd like to circulate continuously because my mind tells me that is better for some reason.

2. I can put a solenoid valve in line so that it opens and closes with the temp controller sending water to the heat exchanger as needed.  ????

My first choice is number 2, but I have no idea how to wire up a solenoid valve.  I know they make 110V valves.  Can I just put a plug on it and plug it into my temp controller?  I have zilcho electrical skills and figure that it can't be that easy.  I see all of these PID dealios and have no desire to go that route unless it can be done on the 3rd grade level, which is where I am.  HELP!

You can control a solenoid that way, but ultimately in this instance it would be no different than cycling the pump on and off. Besides, the way you describe would be allowing your pump to deadhead, generally not a good idea.
The best way for temperature control would be a control valve (variable range, not just on or off) this would be part of the PID you mentioned. Not complicated. Basically your temperature controller opens your valve to a point to allow hot water through, if it is not enough, it will open more. Too much closes the valve. Most decent temp controllers would have a built in PID function to make this happen. More expensive models can actually "learn", and can determine to a fairly great degree of accuracy how much to open the valve at any given temperature.

This is possible, what you're looking for is a 3 port, two position valve. The solenoid valves he's talking about are 2 port (Supply & return), two position (Open/Closed). You can also opt for normally open or normally closed usually, in which case they use a spring to default to a certain position unless activated. You'll probably have to wire the solenoid to a plug, which shouldn't be terrible difficult. I'm not sure if this is going to be any better for you than controlling the pump, but here's some diagrams that might help.

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Three-Position-Solenoid-Valve/dp/B005HKNQR2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499808642&sr=8-1&keywords=2+position+three+port+solenoid+hydraulic